“Tibra stole source code Getco”
The ink is barely dry on the settlement agreement with Optiver, and new trouble looms for Tibra. Rumor has it Tibra has got a problem with Getco, or KCG as it is called after the take over of Knight. It’s a listed company nowadays, KCG.
Game changing hire
In november 2012 two former executives from Getco emerged at the London office of market maker / HFT shop Tibra. A head of algo trading and a software developer joined the Australians. At the time, heralded as a game changing hire (login). On contrary, one could say if the stories are true ; it would be a game we’ve heard before.
The developer allegedly took with him source codes, which have been used in real production. The story is, the management of Tibra was well aware of the situation, which would make the matter a lot bigger than just pinning the blame on some individuals.
Other developers
Can’t completely rule out the possibility these rumors come from the imagination of disgruntled former Tibra employees. There are hundreds of former employees, as the company has been downsizing from 350 to well below 100. Offices and trading desks shutting down in Europe and USA. Option trading business has been abandoned.
However, other developers at Tibra London notice when a new hire brings in outside code. Superhuman speed of writing a huge amount of code, inconsistent coding styles and even code in the repo not being used in production anywhere. Currently the HF code allegedly taken from Getco, has been closed off to the company. The game changer himself has closed down his LinkedIn profile, which is a pity because it was funny.
This isn’t a vague rumor overheard in a pub. Sources have been able to show credible pieces of information.
Getco knows
It gets even worse. Getco (KGC) is said to know about the situation, and managed to obtain solid evidence. Negotiations between lawyers of KCG and Tibra are said to be ongoing and trying to reach a settlement outside of court. Harvey Specter knows why – avoid court. Win your battles before they’ve been fought.
The treasure chest of Tibra isn’t what it used to be. Aargh, the piracy business is a risky adventure!
KCG declined to comment.
first,
is this official or unofficial?
anybody can post the text for subscription restricted http://www.efinancialnews.com/story/2012-11-08/tibra-capital-hires-ex-getco-staff
lolz. well first time around paid off, so why not do it again…
aren’t you being presumptuous in thinking whole tibra management would have signed-off on kcg prop code stealing, sounds like work of one-rotten apple, no management in sane mind would take undue risk, they don’t want to loose their cushy job now would they, also their is little appetite in trying to grow revenue since you don’t get a decent cut of it anyways; so no appetite for undue risky losses or trying to make profit growth
*there
How much money those game changers made with stolen code?
negligible, give or take, wild guess, unofficial of course
Former Getco duo emerge at rival HFT
Tim Cave
08 Nov 2012
Tibra Capital has appointed two former executives at Getco Europe, with one described as a “game-changing” hire for the Australian high-frequency trading firm looking to improve its fortunes in Europe.
Former Getco duo emerge at rival HFT
Tibra Capital, which is headquartered in Sydney, has appointed Stephen Kovalcik as head of algorithmic trading and Neil Groves as a software developer in its London office, Financial News has learned.
Both were previously employed at rival firm Getco Europe.
Kovalcik left Getco’s European division, where he was a head trader in equities, in March, according to the Financial Services Authority’s register of authorised persons. Prior to Getco he worked at Chicago-based Wolverine Trading, according to his LinkedIn profile.
Groves was with Getco for two years, leaving in June, according to his LinkedIn profile. He joined the firm from gaming technology company Aris Technologies, where he was a technical lead.
According to one City of London headhunter, Groves is viewed as a “game-changing” hire for Tibra as it pushes to be a “bigger player in Europe”.
Tibra was founded in Sydney in 2006 by renowned trader Danny Bhandari. The firm specialises in proprietary trading and market-making in derivatives, equities and foreign exchange across global trading venues and has offices in Sydney, London, Amsterdam, Hong Kong and Chicago.
It is one of a handful of firms that use their own capital and heavily quantitative, computer-driven techniques to trade across markets in fractions of a second. The strategies of the firms vary and include market-making, as well as statistical arbitrage techniques designed to extract profits from discrepancies in prices across different securities and platforms.
High-frequency trading has burgeoned over the last decade and now accounts for around a third of trading on European exchanges, according to analysts.
The hires come after a difficult year for the group in Europe. In its most recent financial statements filed with Companies House, Tibra Trading Europe Ltd reported a 62% fall in revenues to £44.4m for the year ended June 30, 2011. Pre-tax profits fell by 90% to £1m.
The company attributed its performance last year to “challenging [conditions] in the global financial services sector”.
Getco Europe, Tibra Capital and Groves could not be reached for comment. Kovalcik did not return calls seeking comment.
If this alleged story is true it is making anybody who ever worked there unemployable.
@9.17pm how did you come up with a such a silly conclusion?
Optioner claimed that Tibra founders stole their code and yet anyone who left tibra on past years succefully found a new job according to LinkedIn.
Optiver*
you actually went through all the tibra leavers’ linkedin profiles? is that some premium feature linkedin provides, research how your career might look like once you leave the firm you are considering joining
Anyone got a cached copy of this funny linkedin profile that was taken down?
Yes, a premium feature of LinkedIn.
About this claim that Tibra management were “well aware” of code being taken from Getco – who in Tibra management are we talking about? Board members? Middle management in IT? Department heads? If any of the founders and/or ex-Optiver people knew, they must’ve been monumentally stupid to allow it to happen, considering how much Optiver’s case had already cost them.
enough of speculation already, give it some time, let the facts emerge rather than waste time on conjecturing all possible scenarios
don’t be a spoilsport – we come here for leaks, rumours and gossip!
alright, go on think of 1000 different possibilities, didn’t know you had so much time to waste on something so non-productive
Funny profile: http://www.yatedo.com/p/Neil+Groves/normal/26f7169c5663fde96e7a13fab74fde7f
how did grove transport the codes out of getco and how did they catch on to his trail?
There are two ways to run a trading business: build your own strategies or “buy/steal” strategies developed and proofed by others. Companies in the second category tend to act out of desperation and are usually the losers in this game, at least in the long term. These category of companies are mainly looking for experienced traders, some of them even try to audit the strategies before making a hiring choice and are well aware that thousands of lines of external source code are brought in.
Do you actually work in this 2nd category of companies that you are speaking with such authority?
Also, there is nothing wrong with auditing source code before hiring, the company is not the one stealing the code, for all they know, the guy probably wrote the code at home
@9.17pm I think those individuals involved would have trouble – Andrew King for instance.
stereotyping will definitely happen. Nobody wants to hire from a firm whose reputation has been tarnished, not once but twice. You have no credibility whatsoever especially if your first employer has been among the two ones who are suing. Everything being grey, no employer wants to touch you. You may have been the ‘honest guy’ who did nothing wrong, but you hung around with the wrong group of people my friend. As far as the guy who is searching up people using the premium linkedin feature which does not exist, time to rework your resume and fill that gap with something more constructive.
Echoing the words of this man.
http://www.brw.com.au/p/entrepreneurs/lister_tells_settle_with_optiver_7gn4TsrAFtukgkdZD2XzXK
Maybe JT’s mum could assist Glenn with any court procedings against Optiver?
relax guys money ain’t everything.
are you merely echoing the words of Glenn or are you glenn yourself?
Unless he waited until 2am Sydney time to post it himself I’m thinking not.
lol, don’t tell me linkedin has a premium feature which tells you glenn’s bedroom habits, haha
That BRW article has a list of people who have settled their individual cases. Notably absent are Andrew King and Martin Nicholas (in addition to Glenn Williamson).
optiver realises it’s time to move on, specially with the new ceo coming in, he wouldn’t want to get distracted with peanuts in grand scheme of things, also he ain’t dutch so he should be able to leave behind some money on the table, absentees on the list can breathe easy?
Mind you, Hilgers was the chief in Australia before he turned global chief so he sat through these court cases all the way through. He himself called it quits now
The BRW article just lists the other members of the Young Rich List. Christian King does not have an individual case to settle.
they can easily do 10 bucks trading revenue in a single day, why would they distract themselves so much, penny wise pound foolish, it’s time they grew up and start acting like so
who the f*** is Christian King and why is he mentioned so frequently?
I am you f****** dad, Respect maa authoritanh!
Relax guys. Here is something funny on computer driven derivatives.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWDKCeKFDWw
xtranormal videos are unfunny by definition
here we go with broad brush generalization and no appreciation of cross-currency swap
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Barrel%20Boy
lemming, dude, lol
There would be no pure arbitrage at sheep dip trading with a transaction tax. Liquidity in quotes…….
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-04/how-many-hft-quotes-does-it-take-execute-3-trades-hint-over-2-million
We’re those two million quotes an anomaly or is that what happens every day?
I’d say it happens every day. Pick one: a good price (small spread) or a bigger order to trade ratio.
also because competition has increased there is also a lot of churn due to collision of codes with strategies and counter strategies (counter counter strategies??). Thats the point the point – its no longer a market where fundamentals are material to the price
@6:43 pm.
Christian King was a trader joined from IMC. He was once considered as the best derivative trader among Tibra.
stop leaving limit orders and big part of hft mumbo jumbo goes away; you obviously can’t take away stat arb and latency arb unless of course if the buy side takes extraordinary leap of spreading their execution across venues and correlated listings
‘By 9:20, the number of quotes in this one stock represented 27% of all quotes from all NMS symbols up to that point in time’
you still say this happens every day?
what’s chris upto now?
@11:49 That’s funny mate.
Christian King looks and acts like the Jim Carey character from Dumb and Dumber.
Cambell Norwood is the other one.
who is Cambell Norwood?
just the headline
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/campbell-norwood/22/a28/642
Yeah, but unlike Campbell, Kingy actual has some trading skills. Campbell’s only talent was being in the right place at the right time, and he doesn’t even seem to be able to do that any more.
eh, is there any right place at right time you can think of currently?
Too true. Without Kingy Tibra would not be where it is today.
Aren’t these two names from IMC also on the BRW list ?
anyone got experience with flextrade? opinions pls?
mostly Orc users here.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-05/dutch-bankers-swear-to-god-as-trust-in-lenders-slumps-to-record.html
they don’t have the same issue up-north
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-june-24-2013/money-boo-boo—the-canadian-banking-system
you can install ‘daily show hack’ add-in to your firefox to watch daily show outside US
firms delaying filing their returns with the company house. Not a good sign of the business.
why?
“Without Kingy Tibra would not be anywhere”
“Campbells only talent was being in the right place at the right time”
Ex director of Europe Kingys talent was living the fast life in London. So the real talented traders could get on with making cash. When Tibra management started concentrating on increasing profits instead of just drinking them that is when it all started to go downhill
jesus, with all the skeltons from vdm, ao, imc, tibra; can you guys grow up and get on with your miserable lives; shit happens; stop complaining all ready
@12:28 amen to that. what happens when you make money from money; its hollow with no productive input so it becomes a pissing competition
Now that I was spending more time on the floor, I wondered why the men’s room always stank. Then one afternoon at three, when I was in there taking a leak, I discovered the hideous truth. Traders had a contest. Coming in at eight, they never left their desks all day, eating and drinking while working. Then, at three o’clock, they marched into the men’s room and stood at the wall opposite the urinals. Dropping their pants, they bet $100 on who could train his stream the longest on the urinals across the lavatory. As their hydraulic pressure waned, the three traders waddled, pants at their ankles, across the floor, desperately trying to keep their pee on target. This is what $2 million of bonus can do to grown men.
http://nymag.com/news/business/55687/index2.html
Last month, my neighbor, a retired schoolteacher, offered to deliver my oysters into the city. He had lost half his savings, and his pension had been cut by 30 percent. The chain of events from my computer to this guy’s pension is lengthy and intricate. But it’s there, somewhere. Buried like a keel in the sand. If you dive deep enough, you’ll see it. To know that a dozen years of diligent work somehow soured, and instead of benefiting society unhinged it, is humbling. I was never a player, a big swinger. I was behind the scenes, inside the boxes. My hard work, in its time and place, merited a reward, but it also contributed to what has become a massive, ever-expanding failure. For that, I must make a mea culpa. Not a mea maxima culpa, mind you, but some measure of responsibility, a few basis points of shame. Give my ego a haircut.
Had a good 05-08. Got screwed on the bonus but made enough to take some time of the business. It was only when I was out of the business for a while did I have time to reflect.
These lines capture the essence of most of the sabbatical
‘It hurts when people say I caused this mess. I was and am quite proud of the work I did. My software was a delicate, intricate web of logic. They don’t understand, I tell myself. Perhaps it was too complicated. But we live in a world largely of our own device. How to adjust and control these complexities, without stifling innovation, is the problem’
Who were these talented Tibra traders that made the money in 2008?
everyone in mm made money in 08, you can call all of them very talented
Bonuses at source capital were on average 15$ per person in 2013, the company trip has been cancelled the second year in a row.
Is this a common problem in the industry or specific at source? Are there any rumors on bonuses paid in other companies?
it’s the same everywhere, get real, if some place is doing better and you are any good, the head hunter would come get ya, otherwise refer to this –
‘jesus, with all the skeltons from vdm, ao, imc, tibra, source; can you guys grow up and get on with your miserable lives; shit happens; stop complaining all ready’
optiver and IMC payed bonuses in 2013 and did a company trip as well
A base of 1000000 is a bit too much…
Does imc leave their bonus lists in the kitchen?
it’s not a bonus list, it’s a guesstimate of bonus list, it’s a market making firm, so they get their bid and offers and solve for the mid, these numbers can never be verified, might as well as delete that list, least imc cry baby comes weeping again
Where is listj?
Found it here:
https://www.anonyme.com/View/cee1492a-edca-449c-bdac-0f8c4470e2bb
*lest
can imc go crying to anonyme?
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/young-rich-list-traders-settle-sevenyear-fight-with-former-employer-20140207-3274d.html
Why IMC bonus list has been removed from the comments?
oh oh…
so it is not true that all companies pay shitty bonuses in our days
IMC is just going to cause a lot of noise over a list which obv can’t be verified for authenticity, it’s fine, just delete it, it’s pretty useless and anyone with reasonable feel of the ground realities can guess those ball park numbers
‘so it is not true that all companies pay shitty bonuses in our days’
of course it is not true, and it was never true.
Only shitty companies pay shitty bonuses and their shitty managers (which usually relying on game changing new hires) tell you that this is normal, that the whole industry is having troubles… welcome to the zero sum game of intraday trading, this is a winner-takes-it-all competitive environment. There are plenty of companies making lots of money in these days…
top two have market share of 150% and the bottom three pay for that excess 50%
As someone recruiting locally in Sydney for roles in HFT system development, algorithmic trading etc, we’ve have since around ’09 blacklisted any Tibra developer and trader that had worked at the company during the period ’06-’09.
The primary reason was that a large number of employers (IBs, MMs etc) in the area will reject them outright without even an interview. Now this has got nothing to do with the individual’s skills or abilities but rather the complacency demonstrated by them to have worked in that environment knowing what was going on and obviously having been involved directly or indirectly with an improperly appropriated codebase.
And what do they think now that the case was settled without admission?
Quote:
“And what do they think now that the case was settled without admission?”
I do not believe the settlement or its outcome will in any way change the facts about the situation at hand.
In Sydney it has been known for a very long time with a great deal of certitude by all the major players (GS, DB, UBS, CSFB, SIG, Eclipse, Liquid, Timber Hill, GETCO) that Tibra (aka FTD at the time) did in fact misappropriate the Optiver developed F1 trading system and did use it to trade initially, furthermore based on when they received ASX certification and when the mass walkout from optiver occurred, it’s more than likely that some of those initial employees were working on Tibra’s systems on Optiver time.
There is no doubt by industry players that it did happen, and unfortunately the tech people at the centre of it are having a very hard time finding work in the industry. One example from a couple years back, I encountered one resume where the guy had altered his time at Tibra and had changed it to indicate that he was starting up a surf board business in Bondi. Unfortunately for him, as we purchase DBs from other recruitment agencies, we found a version of his resume from a year prior that instead listed him working at Tibra over the same period as a senior software engineer in the connectivity team.
If it’s such a foregone conclusion, why did Optiver settle?
What evidence do these major players have that Optiver doesn’t?
Quote: “If it’s such a foregone conclusion, why did Optiver settle?”
Quote: “What evidence do these major players have that Optiver doesn’t?”
Knowing something happened based on information you can’t reveal due to its providence potentially jeopardizing your own “situation” and proving something in court without causing any further problems are two completely different situations.
In the former one does not have the obligation or necessity to carry out the latter.
Please remember that we are talking about corporate hiring practices, we are talking about the types of individuals people want to have on their team, and the types of individual people are willing to open up their so called “secret sauce”.
No one really cares if Optiver can prove anything in court. No one even cares if they get a payout, what most people care about is not having the people involved in this fiasco anywhere near their systems or concerns.
It is as simple as that – end of story.
Sounds like you’re talking out of your arse.
Neil Groves LinkedIn BIOGRAPHY
Software developer and computer scientist with a keen interest in
correct, portable and performant code. Specialising in C++, STL and
Boost.Currently the official developer of Boost.Range. Preparing new
Range draft proposal for the standard.
Work Experience
2012 – Present
Comedian / Software Developer – Tibra Capital Financial Services | 201-500 employees
Putting the “Me” in Mediocre; although by some combination of random
events and happy accidents I may well have done just enough to avoid
being fired for another few months. I’m continuing to develop software
with the emphasis on comedy.Currently building the fastest market-
making architecture in the world. With our first release we are
already multiples faster than the platforms to which I was most
recently accustomed.
2009 – 2012
Associate – Getco LLC Capital Markets
Working with a great team of people to utilise technology in new and
interesting ways in the finance sector.Implemented connectivity
solutions to: OMX, SWX, Superfeed, LIFFE, Eurex etc.Implemented or
improvement many of GETCO’s core technology stack.Recently developed
improvements to signal fitting improving signals by > 20% in out-of-
sample back-testing
2007 – 2009
Technical Lead – Aris Technologies
Designed the framework for a multi-game multi-platform on-line gaming
solution. Implemented this with a small group of friendly software
developers.
1991 – 1994
BSc in Software Engineering – University of Southampton
N/A
A Level in Mathematics (Further Mechanics), Physics and Computer Science – Peter Symonds’ College
Neil Groves BIOGRAPHY
Software developer and computer scientist with a keen interest in correct, portable and performant code. Specialising in C++, STL and Boost.Currently the official developer of Boost.Range. Preparing new Range draft proposal for the standard.
Work Experience
2012 – Present
Comedian / Software Developer – Tibra Capital Financial Services | 201-500 employees
Putting the “Me” in Mediocre; although by some combination of random events and happy accidents I may well have done just enough to avoid being fired for another few months. I’m continuing to develop software with the emphasis on comedy.Currently building the fastest market-making architecture in the world. With our first release we are already multiples faster than the platforms to which I was most recently accustomed.
2009 – 2012
Associate – Getco LLC Capital Markets
Working with a great team of people to utilise technology in new and interesting ways in the finance sector.Implemented connectivity solutions to: OMX, SWX, Superfeed, LIFFE, Eurex etc.Implemented or improvement many of GETCO’s core technology stack.Recently developed improvements to signal fitting improving signals by > 20% in out-of-sample back-testing
2007 – 2009
Technical Lead – Aris Technologies
Designed the framework for a multi-game multi-platform on-line gaming solution. Implemented this with a small group of friendly software developers.
1991 – 1994
BSc in Software Engineering – University of Southampton
N/A
A Level in Mathematics (Further Mechanics), Physics and Computer Science – Peter Symonds’ College
Sounds like a knob
definitely a game changing hire, who is the headhunter who came up with this working and article and on which basis did he make such claims?
he is a recruiter, take it with a pinch of salt (or in his case with ‘secret sauce’) what comes out of him
He is not a recruiter, he is a forum troll.
calm down fella, what he is talking about doesn’t suggest anything which could be wildly far away from ground reality
Thank you Sydney recruiter for reemphasising the point of unemployability. In the UK too, the scrutinising, magnifying glass exists. The linked-in guy will come back and defend, but we all know otherwise.
you guys are reading too much into a structurally declining industry, comp is still way too high in this sector, labour supply is excessive and the rest of economy is barely healing; all these hiring filters are completely expected in that situation, you don’t have to be a genius Sydney recruiter to see what’s going on, it is what it is
Are you guys seriously taking what Sydney recruiter said here?
A guy is just trolling the board.
Look at LinkedIn a bunch of tibra people who were there in 06-09 are employed at IBs, prop shops and etc.
wow, ‘The linked-in guy will come back and defend, but we all know otherwise.’
101 comments. Its a winner !!!!
IMC bonis listj I have it for Zug & some Chicago.
Where I post it?
February 11th, 2014 at 8:31 pm
IMC bonis listj I have it for Zug & some Chicago.
Where I post it?
–
IMC will be worried again. nice. e-mail tp jack will do
Stephen Kovalcik, the other game changer. What is he doing now? Did he leave Tibra? If yes, why?
Don’t you have a linkedin profile to check it for yourself?
Post them here.
LinkedIn.com
Time for a ‘lite’ news item perhaps? What do you think of the wolf of wall street?
uk.linkedin.com/in/stephenkovalcik
nobody cares about imc bonus list except for imc lawyers who would love to start billing their client 1000 bucks an hour for being a cry baby
here’s the new wolf 2.0
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-30/wall-street-attracts-chop-shops-20-years-after-wolf-.html
In regards to what Sydney Recruiter said, I’ve seen something similar. I work for an MM in Singapore on their algotrading system, and there is definitely a blacklist of developers and traders.
Nothing specific to Tibra. The list primarily consists of individuals that are either known to have or are strongly suspected of having taken IP with them from one organization to another. Others on the list include people that had previously interviewed but did poorly for one reason or another and should not be reconsidered in the future (save HR time).
Other than the obvious ways, I don’t know all the ways an individual might get on the list, I don’t know how one might get themselves off the list and other than a couple of groups, I’m not sure which other groups use it, or if it’s shared with other organizations.
There is nothing wrong with corps having such lists and using them as they need. So I’m not sure why so many people are attacking the Sydney commenter other than it seems like there’s a bunch of people here, that are a bit worried at the thought that they might be on such lists.
btw if you’re really interested in working at an organization with an impeccable track record why not consider Virtu Financial?
really virtu, wow nobody has heard of them before, thanks mate
agree with the guy above there definitely are blacklists in use. nothing new here.
does anyone know what the groves guys package was like, was there a joining bonus included?
Only those ‘who can add value’ immediately are hired.
Doubt any senior hire has happened in 07-09 without that happening.
Tis not quite sure if he was poached or a group of laid off guys who were picked up. (GETCO did layoff around that time ?)
There is a home at Maven for anyone who worked at Tibra London 07-09 and sucked off enough toon.
the black list doesn’t make sense from a game theory view; why would you not put all your ex-employees on that list so that your competitors doesn’t hire them and your previous employee ends up returning back home at lower price
also, what’s the implication in terms of data privacy when hr shares information about the ex-employee without the sign-off from the ex-employee; are hr staff actually disregarding data privacy?
and finally in terms of referral laws, usually companies are not allowed to give a bad/opinionated reference; they usually give a fact based reerence like start/end date and corporate grade; are hr staff actually disregarding this referral policy?
also what prevents from a boss putting a subordinate’s name on blacklist if subordinate refuses to take on an unreasonable blowing job
Toon is the only one who knows whats going on. He has carried a lot of dead body passengers in his time, maybe even now.
they might appear dead to you, but they are actually mind blasting for toon
I don’t know what you guys are smoking???!!
Tibra is doing just fine. they’re currently in a massive hiring frenzy in both oz and uk. can’t get enough talented people, base salaries are on the up and up and also they’re relocating to larger offices in Wollongong.
Tibra bashing seems to be the one thing this thread is good at.
blacklists are common. usually companies just don’t want to interview people a 2nd, 3rd, 4th time round. ppl do reapply heaps.
if you’re worried, be direct and ask the HR rep.
how are blacklists dealing with privacy, referral, game theory by competitors, bad boss issues or are you refering to hr maintaining a list within a company at the request of a business area to filter CVs with?
As herbert would say – Living well is the best revenge. You don’t have to defend tibra, just print mios and drive in ferraris, enjoy your life my man
Tibra sounds like that place is full of snakes. It makes sense that Oliver’s ex G.C has been working there for quite some time now. I bet he’s eating the shit up over there.
who is Oliver ? what is G.C. ?
optiver’s general counsel?
http://www.finalternatives.com/node/26110
Who or what is toon?
Guys,
What is Optiver Australia like to work for? Good office? Good team? Good working conditions? How’s management there?
Thx
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/ian-toon/9/378/b43
don’t look at optiver australia in absolute terms, what are you comparing it against?
High-frequency trading firm Maven Securities hopes to translate its early success into an expansion into hedge funds.
The London-based firm may launch a hedge fund featuring its best-performing strategies—if it can find the right partner. Maven would “look to spin out a number of strategies into a hedge fund given the right seed investor,” co-founder Ben Huda told Financial News.
Huda, a former trader at Tibra Capital, founded Maven in 2011 with Ivan Koedjikov and Ian Toon. Koedjikov formerly worked at Optiver and Toon worked at both Optiver and Tibra. The proprietary-trading firm generated £19 million in revenue and £7.8 million in its first full year of operations, ending on June 30 of last year.
Huda said Maven’s success was due to its technology platform and diversified strategies, and said it plans to continue to expand. Last year, it hired Raphael Kain from Trafalgar Asset Managers.
“Maven is well-diversified in terms of trading strategies and we will continue to base our expansion plans around any talented traders we recruit,” Huda told FN. “As with all proprietary trading firms facing such a dynamic regulatory landscape, we are looking to further complement our compliance and risk functions with key hires.”
Probably the most underrated man in the delta 1 business for the longest time. Good to see he is finally getting his due.
how did you conclude he was under rated?
why are you copy pasting text from weblink already pasted before?
http://www.finalternatives.com/node/26110
Tibra in a hiring frenzy? Please explain, anyone else can second that.
Interesting that the ones that signed the optiver settlement were traders not developers eg Williamson
I was a trader AND a developer, doofus.
And what do you think Andrew King, Martin Nickolas and Nick Begg do, as opposed to Danny Bhandari, Tim Berry and Kinsey Cotton?
I think Virtu has got all these dutch MMs beat. It’s run by an ex army guy in a very disciplined manner, everyone participates in the company profit share scheme, and everything is provided for you.
You thought Google was awesome when it comes to perks and what not, you gotta check Virtu Financial out, they are da BEST!!!
but remember they don’t suffer fools, you gotta be on top of your game to even get your name in the door, so it’s probably not for everyone.
What are your current thoughts on tibra Glenn? How are management performing?
No comment on their performance or capability. I don’t work there, so I don’t see what happens day to day.
Obviously I think settling the case was a mistake.
Haha you’ve given yourself away as being an imposter. The real Glenn Williamson has plenty of opinions about current Tibra management.
obvious traders signed up settlement, ever heard of hacking your losses, the developer probably thinks that the position would come back in their favor
optiver has similar incentives and benefits aligned like virtu, but obviously bit old dutch school and not a global juggernaut like virtu
Much bigger than virtu in terms of revenues, head count and profits.
Not as big on US equities delta 1 though.
“Haha you’ve given yourself away as being an imposter. The real Glenn Williamson has plenty of opinions about current Tibra management.”
If you claim to know that much about me, then surely you should know how to contact me directly to check that it’s actually me.
Glenn, you wrote a letter some time ago to tibra workers asking their opinions about management, suggesting the culture of the place was poor and that people were not comfortable talking to management, ad should instead, contact you so you could tell management what people really felt. Did anyone get back to you? Is it true Tim Berry said that anyone who spoke to you was breaching their contract? You had opinions then, but you don’t now?
what are the comparable numbers for optiver vs virtu on rev, employees and profits attributable to shareholders?
Optiver’s net profit in 2012 was around EUR 130 mio. Virtu made almost USD 250 mio.
Optiver’s headcount stands at around 650. Virtu less than 100.
Draw your own conclusions.
‘bit old dutch school and not a global juggernaut like virtu’
really virtu got less than 100 people, what’s the trading pnl/revenues?
if this is true, virtu is now the number 1 prop trading firm. But it is probably not true.
define ‘number 1 prop trading firm’
Virtu’s EBITDA was 240m USD according to http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7641b374-6832-11e3-8ada-00144feabdc0.html and http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-02/market-maker-virtu-expands-globally-as-it-mulls-public-offering.html.
So net likely less than Optiver’s 130m EUR.
how much is interest and tax likely on top of 240m usd, do they have tax optimization? depreciation can be adversely affected by aggressive accounting?
well atleast the revenues are less than a yard, the article states 510m raised to refinance debt, sounds rather large, annual debt servicing say at 5% or 25m? how’s ibkr’s mm?
define ‘number 1 prop trading firm’
Tibra
no the number 1 is source capital
here we go with the dirty laundry again, you guys soil your clothes way too much
“the article states 510m raised to refinance debt, sounds rather large, annual debt servicing say at 5% or 25m? how’s ibkr’s mm?”
In around ’07 – ’08 Vinnie got kicked out of Madison Tyler/EWT. As a going away gift he was given a copy of the codebase and the opportunity to take a couple of engineers with him. The agreement stipulated that he not establish a competing MM for 3 years. Virtu was established in NY and over the next 3 years they bide their time, simulating trading and perfecting their systems and not much else.
Vinnie was low on cash and realized for Virtu to succeed he needed money so he went to Silver Lake with a proposal They would “lend” him a substantial amount of money, he would in turn buy MT/EWT, and make the whole MM thing work, because simply put the technology he had developed over the last 3 years on his own was lets say not up to the task. SL said ok but with one condition:
We get a cut of the profits and if by the end of ’12 you must IPO, if you don’t there will be a rather steep annual pay-out scheme.
That ~$500m amount is the yearly SL repayment plus the accompanying vig. I’m guessing Vinnie is hoping that this will be the last payout he has to make to his current overlords, as Virtu is probably going to IPO in the next few months.
In an article from a couple of years back, someone that was identified as a really close friend of Vinnie’s was quoted as saying:
“Vinnie will always be for Vinnie and no one else.”
please don’t tell these Dutch firms that they aren’t the best. just look at how butt hurt they are that Virtu made more than them.
As far as Virtu is concerned it is a shared decision to IPO, Virtu would continue to pay rather than IPO if they thought the revenue streams were reliable. My opinion is this signals the further reduced profitability of the MMs. Glencore and Blackstone sold at or near the top, I expect the Virtu IPO follows the same pattern.
“Did anyone get back to you? Is it true Tim Berry said that anyone who spoke to you was breaching their contract? You had opinions then, but you don’t now?”
Of course I have opinions, but this isn’t the place for them.
this is exactly the right place for your opinion, just drop off your name and join in
who financed 500m to a prop trading firm in the backdrop of kcg dropping the same amount in an hour?
bluecrest did something similar in hedge funds using borrowed money, but they are a completely different animal in comparison to these bottom feeders mm
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-20/man-who-said-no-to-soros-builds-bluecrest-into-empire.html
Rumour has it that in late 2011 bhandari and a rep from goldmans approached virtu wanting to see if virtu would buy his entire stake at tibra.
Though it might have been Williamson. I keep getting the two confused as they look so much alike.
No that was James Scott Tydeman.
However Bhandari at the time was trying to offload his share to Knight Capital and also WorldQuant neither of which wanted anything to do with Tibra in any way shape or form.
who is duncan?
bhandari would sell to anybody if there was a decent bid, he is a trader, why would you be on the other side of his trade?
goldman is just a middle man, they don’t mind their 5% cut, things are slow so they don’t mind sending a junior associate for this small potential transaction
‘sending a junior associate’
It was a Director that came along….
while you are it, why not say ‘a partner came along’
that said, how much did you pay gs to send in a director for few hours of work? things must be pretty tough at gs if they are sending out a director with bhandari to sell in shares of falling tibra to roaring virtu, why would gs wanna attach their reputation to the lemon of bhandari/tibra, did their compliance sign-off on doing business with you/tibra?
Hilgers to announce a takeover of tibra soon.
are you hilgers?
It’s possible that the GS rep was merely a pleb from the Sydney wealth management group. At the time Bhandari was probably considered a “high net-worth individual”, and GS was merely managing what little remaining wealth that he possessed.
lol, director in a wealth mgmt div is not worth 2 cents, so called client portfolio manager, glorified personal teller
Why did Glenn’s latest comment get deleted?
it looks only his name got deleted and not his comment, maybe the real glenn complained to censor police hk guy?
Glenn, I wonder what tibra managements opinion is of you?
how does it matter?
Great minds discuss ideas, medium discuss events, weak minds discuss people
Glenn, you must be fucking kidding me.
almost all senior ppl at tibra (king, campbell, hugo and etc) were discussed in discussing ppl rather than ideas.
Great minds invent, medium minds copy, weak minds steal
do you call coding invention?
what’s the difference between copying and stealing?
how did you conclude stealing?
all senior people at tibra discussed people, well looking at tibra now kinda makes sense then
just because you win a lottery doesn’t make you a genius in picking the right numbers
“maybe the real glenn complained to censor police hk guy?”
Correct. The last few comments attributed to me are not mine.
chill out glenn, nobody cares 2cents what you say or not say or supposedly said or not said
Can someone with inside knowledge at Tibra explain what happened with James Tydeman, and why he was pushed out?
Glenn any thoughts on this?
JT got to the point where he was completely useless. He just trash talked about how quickly he could implement things but never actually delivered anything.
I wasn’t there when JT left, but my understanding is that he resigned rather than being “pushed out”.
He believes that the company should have bought his shares back at a much higher price than what he sold them for, and that’s why he is suing the company.
JT: I’m still happy to speak to you about your case. It looks like an enormous waste of money to me.
you know you two love birds can find each other on facebook or tweet sweet nothings on twitter or share your glam pics on instagram
Any comments from muirhead on the scalping interpretation? I heard those T-shares were a great idea.
It’s funny though because Tibra was run like a mini Ponzi in the early days.
Original investors got in at book value. And slightly later shareholders like JT etc had to buy in at book plus a multiple of “earnings”.
Little did they know, the small print says that in the absence of a buyer then they will be forced to sell out at book when leaving the company.
JT didn’t have to do anything – he chose to buy in. Also he deliberately quit a day before he would have earned the right to keep his shares and not be forced to sell out. And the bit where it says the company buys back at book value is in the same size font as the rest of the agreement. What an idiot.
what are t-shares?
aren’t you supposed to read the small print when significant personal wealth is invested in a private market shares?
why did jt chose to buy in and why did he deliberately quit a day before he would have earned the right to keep his shares and not be forced to sell out?
t-shares as in tibra shares?
Why did he choose to sell them?
If he hadn’t, would the company not have been obliged to offer book for them?
Book bid is better than no bid.
why are you repeating the question already asked
Why don’t you use a question mark when asking a question, numbnuts?
Tibra sold shares to employees at 3 times book, then fired them and bought them back at book value. genius!
why did the employees buy those overpriced shares in the first place?
what was the book value at time of selling shares compared to the book value at time of buy back?
pls note the use of question marks, is that fine lord numbnut
oops forgot the last question mark
“Tibra sold shares to employees at 3 times book, then fired them and bought them back at book value. genius!”
I bet you can’t name a single person that this has happened to. Both JT and Muirhead resigned of their own volition. Who were you thinking of?
Source Capital is well known for having invented this, giving overprices shares instead of bonus and reasonable base salary, firing people and buying shares back very cheap
whether they resigned or got fired, its still an awesome deal for the company. they must have been idiots to accept those terms unless they were duped
nobody is duped, you sign the paper and you very well know you can be screwed when the time comes. That’s the way capitalism works. The rich grows richer and the Proletariat keeps running after the bonus carrot. They are not idiots, it’s the human nature to hope and pray. if there was a better alternative, they would have already taken up on that. You take whatever you are offered
JT should have got his mom to review the contract before he bought into the deal.
‘The rich grows richer and the Proletariat keeps running after the bonus carrot.’
unless there is a revolution and the rich gets his bill to pay, or the employer, for which no professional is willing to work anymore, gets bust…
@glenn. Apparently Csaba was one.
Nope. Csaba bought his shares at book value. Try again.
Toony got screwed over along with Ivan on shares. You can see why they set up shop at Maven.
Toony did his fair share of screwing when he was at Tibra…
Did anyone else make money on tibra shares besides the principals?
who is devlin?
and this is capitalism, there would be no revolution or crucifixion of rich, this is the inherent flaw of capitalism/democracy where rich own the means of production and keep the democracy in their pocket through lobbying of lawmakers, the other alternative of socialism/communism is even worse
who did toony screw over at tibra?
Toony tried to screw tibra out of whatever he could when he was planning on breaking away. he wanted to cancel his share trade so he had more capital to start maven with.
that’s way too generic, can you be more specific as to what toony did, cancelling his share trade means he was trying to prevent tibra from buying back too cheap, what’s wrong with that?
Dont matter what he did back then, Maven has kicked off and in style. The highest paid director in EU in the MM business 2012-2013 is from Maven trading. Go figure.
With all this infighting in this industry maybe you guys should hire a hunger games arena and just go for it. Your not serving clients, not producing a product……nobody will miss you.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-20/here-how-high-frequency-trading-hurts-everyone
Only guys who made money with Tibra shares are principals and now they also make the company pay for their conflict with Optiver, quite unjust.
Only guy who deserves praise is Glenn Williamson for don’t wanting to settle with optiver
Not producing a product, not serving any client, nobody would miss us, what have you been smoking, we provide liquidity to market participants and they would miss us when in our absence they have to pay 100 basis point spread rather than current 10 basis points
Here’s the myth abt Robber Barron in capitalism
Watch on you tube ‘Milton Friedman – Myths That Conceal Reality (Lecture)’
But the experts at ZeroHedge and Nanex said HFT is bad, because the number of quotes are skyrocketing! What more proof do you need? Never mind that quotes are tighter today than they’ve ever been.
ah, the subtle undertone of sarcasm and over-confidence of your utility in the society
however tighter the quotes might, any profits made by hft are inherently frictional cost which economy can do fine without, you can get rid of all this need for speed and wasteful allocation of human and physical capital by doing frequent auctions through out the day and ensuring no manipulation of the order book by these skyrocketing number of quotes/cancellations
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-20/declawing-speed-traders-is-goal-of-stock-market-revamp-proposal.html
what has been the impact of euroland’s tobin tax on liquidity and volumes in stock and options market?
‘any profits made by hft are inherently frictional cost’
That’s not correct. They have money invested in the markets, and any normal return on that capital is just reward for taking risk. Or should you be the only one making money, and is any money made by anyone else a frictionl cost for you?
A market maker should also get some reward for continuously posting quotes in every option series, this does benefit investors and is genuine liquidity (plus it helps price discovery). Nowadays they call that market maker HFT, in the days gone by it was just a market maker. Back then I heard no one complain that market makers made money and how that was a frictional cost, so why should we complain now, now that spreads are much tighter than they used to be? Frequent auctions throughout the day would definitely not be a substitute here.
Where HFT is harmful is in many smallcap stocks where some idiot starts quoting a market for a 100 shares of 8 euro, 1 tick in front of the best bid and offer. People don’t show their size there anymore, because someone is constantly diming them for pithy size.If they’re serious about providing liquidity they should substantially tighten their quotes in such stocks and increase their size. Currently they’re just leeching there.
But then again, lots of HFT do actually do very useful stuff, there’s just some outfits that prefer to wreck markets instead. Instead of blaming all HFT and changing the whole market they should focus on those algos that actually harm the market, and try to get rid of those. Unfortunately people like Nanex prefer to euthanize the patient instead of treating the cancer.
They shouldn’t have any money invested in the market for hft, the point, all the revenues by hft are of course frictional costs. Does anybody want to pay for them, no? Can we live without it, probably?
And just because market makers did wrong in previous decade doesn’t allow hft to do the same wrong this decade. Slavery finally did get abolished even though it existed for centuries? Gay Marriages are next on that social list of changes
Spreads can be zero in frequent auctions? You can still continue with your stupid stat arb, there really is no need for all this need for speed and lat arb, terrible waste of human and physical capital, all for the sake of slightly efficient markets, continuous trading adrenaline and tighter spreads
why can’t frequent auctions throughout the day definitely not be a substitute for continuous trading?
that diming is harmful in large caps too, you are clearly on expert on that, something called predatory algos? it’s just that small caps show your hand little more easily
no one’s out to get your precious hft or changing the whole market, don’t know why you are taking this so personally, oh wait, your whole livelihood currently depends on it, you must be shitting your pants?
you are still thinking one or two algos are the cancer, why do you assume that whole hft is not a cancer?
btw, gs & co lobbying would ensure no such market structure changes ever occur, so go back to your peaceful sleep and come back on monday to earn your mios for providing your great services to mankind
W
They shouldn’t have any money invested in the market for hft, the point, all the revenues by hft are of course frictional costs. Does anybody want to pay for them? Can we live without it, probably?
And just because market makers did wrong in previous decade doesn’t allow hft to do the same wrong this decade. Slavery finally did get abolished even though it existed for centuries? Marriages of same sex couples are next on that social list of changes
Spreads can be zero in frequent auctions? You can still continue with your stupid stat arb, there really is no need for all this need for speed and lat arb, terrible waste of human and physical capital, all for the sake of slightly efficient markets, continuous trading adrenaline and tighter spreads
why can’t frequent auctions throughout the day definitely not be a substitute for continuous trading?
that diming is harmful in large caps too, you are clearly on expert on that, something called predatory algos? it’s just that small caps show your hand little more easily
no one’s out to get your precious hft or changing the whole market, don’t know why you are taking this so personally, oh wait, your whole livelihood currently depends on it, you must be shitting your pants?
you are still thinking one or two algos are the cancer, why do you assume that whole hft is not a cancer?
btw, gs & co lobbying would ensure no such market structure changes ever occur, so go back to your peaceful sleep and come back on monday to earn your mios for providing great services to mankind
hi, censor police hk fella, could you pls remove the word ‘g@@’ from your censor list, for eg, ‘Marriages of same sex couples are next on that social list of changes’ can be written respectfully as ‘G@@ Marriages are next on that social list of changes’
hi, censor police hk fella, could you pls remove the word ‘g@y’ from your censor list, for eg, ‘Marriages of same sex couples are next on that social list of changes’ can be written respectfully as ‘G@y Marriages are next on that social list of changes’
here’s a start to reducing hft frictional cost
http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000248167
Market makers provide a service, they’re not doing wrong. Without market makers in options you’d have empty screens. You could have as many auctions as you like, the chance of a trade taking place would be pretty slim. You might think they’re a wrong, I would have a hard time getting a fill without them. Why is it that it’s only people that never have placed a trade themselves that are complaining about HFT? If you ever had tried to trade with your own money, you’d probably change your opinions.
My whole livelyhood doesn’t depend on HFT, since I don’t work for a HFT firm. Ever considered the possibility that there are people outside these firms that don’t think they’re a cancer?
I can confirm, as an institutional investor we are relying on HFT providing liquidity, it does not even matter if the liquidity is passive or aggressive as we also have some passive orders in the market. There is no doubt that HFT firms provide a positive contribution to market structure and ultimately fulfill a social need.
of course, hft or mm are not doing anything wrong. They are just frictional cost which nobody in right mind would want to pay
auctions was suggested for single stocks, not for all the strikes and expiry in an options series
how did you conclude that you wouldn’t get a fill without them, what are you trying to sell that nobody in the whole wide world wouldn’t wanna buy at zero cost, you do know that mm/hft don’t just buy that for free, they warehouse it at large cost to the investor till another sucker like you comes along on the other side of your brilliant trade
how did you conclude that people pointing out credible alternatives to HFT have never placed a trade themselves? no doubt, you get better fills that ten years ago but doesn’t mean improvement has to stop here, you can completely stamp out this frictional cost
yes, of course i am well aware, people outside hft, people like yourself don’t think they are a cancer, but then there are people who are lobbyists, PR, suppliers, clients etc to this industry, their ease of livelihood is still somewhat tied to the hft; and of course there are people who are completely stupid and unaware of realities around them, they usually survive on the presence of biases and group mentality around them, give it sufficient time, natural selection would catch up
ah, you are the institutional investor, well you are even worse a frictional cost than hft, not to worry, vanguards and etfs are already a credible alternative
both you and hft don’t fulfill any social needs, snap out of your own bubble my man and do some actual social good for a change
your are repeating over and over the same message but you are not providing any facts proving your hypothesis. As we are in a free market, it is people like you who have to prove that HFT is bad, HTF firms cannot be blamed as long as you do not prove that they are not creating value for the market participants or engaging in not legal practices.
calm down institutional investor, the message is being repeated because some people are bone headed enough not to understand the point in one go, so one is left with no choice but to try get the point across in a variety of ways, none of which of course can ensure that the receiver would, in end, finally get the message, it’s like throwing a brick on to the wall, it keeps bouncing back you know
as for facts and hypothesis, let me repeat once more, institutional investor and hft are frictional costs nobody in the economy would wanna pay
again, nobody is saying hft is bad, you are making all this way too personal mate, hft has come in a long way to help with spreads, doesn’t mean we have to stop the advancement because some bozo like you is happy in his cushy job
if you want, above can be rehashed another time, don’t mind throwing bricks few more times, there are plenty of walls like you around us, every time there is a change, these walls need to be scaled to revolutionize the way business is conducted
here’s an eg of how to reduce financial frictional cost and get rid of dinosaurs from last century
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/the-robin-hood-of-currency-exchange-b~xAYKkUQhWQbdPrKGlAiw.html#playlist
‘ They are just frictional cost which nobody in right mind would want to pay’
Just like a supermarket is a frictional cost, since you could also get your potatoes directly from a farmer and get rid of the middle man?
Nobody forces you to trade against HFT, you could just put a passive order in the order book and wait to get filled. No frictional cost there for you. It’s all about choice, my man.
‘institutional investor and hft are frictional costs ‘
How did you conclude that institutional investors are frictional costs? You might want to specify a bit further. How is a pension fund a frictional cost? Maybe you are a frictional cost too? After all, you cause friction on this blog.
How did you conclude that people that don’t agree with you are bone headed?
you can put a passive order, but why would you want to expose yourself to predatory algo?
there is a choice between continuous trading and frequent auction, nobody is stopping you or hft from sourcing/providing liquidity in frequent auctions?
funny you mention supermarket, ever heard of amazon, the juggernaut in ecommerce, look at how they are revolutionizing the middleman role
define institutional investor, what are the costs/benefits of your role?
define pension fund
bone headed person is not defined as per agreement or disagreement with a particular line of reasoning, he or she can be referred to as bone headed when they fail to use their head and live in their own bubble world
here’s another repetition for you, you are making all this way too personal mate, just focus on the merit of ideas without getting bogged down with your personal biases, greed or the need to exchange personal insults, those are all pointless given the ‘anonymous’, nothing sticks
on the topic of middle man and ecommerce, ebay conducts millions of auctions a day, no problem at all, even bone headed person without institutional investor training can participate without paying anything to middleman hft
@8:50 BURDEN OF PROOF FALLACY: someone asks you “do you have evidence that [INSERT NEW PRODUCT such as GMO, cigarettes (in 1940), etc.] is harmful? The answer is that something without a track record, in risk space, needs to prove its hamlessness, not you its harmuflness.
Nassim Taleb (derivatives trader, hedge fund manager, risk professor)
Value of millisecond liquidity only present in volume markets diminishes in the context of several flash crashes and predatory/counter HFT HFT strategies. Value of HFT and risk become relative terms for stable and efficient markets. Ebay/Amazon may be middle man but they don’t add systemic risk or distrust in market integrity.
Risk free pure arbitrage needs to minimized on trading markets. Rebates for HFT add low value liquidity and distort market information. Where systemic risk exists and transparent markets need to operate with price discovery mechanisms reflecting truer market information transaction taxs (or other forms of regulation) constrain the deleterious effects of some HFT strategies.
ebay and amazon are like exchanges for peer-to-peer model, the broker and hft sitting in between buyer and seller are nothing but frictional costs which need to be stamped out if possible
what a waste of day, no institution investor trades, no PnL
@ 3:58/11:34/etc you sound like most academics who have no fuckin clue about how markets function yet write fancy papers that have no interest to anyone outside of academia
Can you be more specific regarding ‘how markets function’
Using a curse word and alleging the other side to be academic with no clue of real world is an old trick mate, be original once in a while
Can we not have this bullshit argument all over again? How about someone share some inside information on the Getco Tibra situation.
how do you mean bullshit argument, you got some sand up your vagina?
notice any middle man
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/china-s-high-rollers-spark-turf-fight-in-macau-yGUZLWh6RbeBjWx3jaR7Xg.html
sounds like tibra needs a good Chief Organizational Development Officer. I know of one, and her husband will provide top notch coaching classes to managers if needed.
again with the dirty laundery, all these moaning and complaining, like a little school girl, just turn around and get use to being ****** already
Tibra has paid KCG for stealing their code:
http://www.efinancialnews.com/story/2015-06-29/hft-firm-tibra-settles-with-kcg-over-alleged-code-theft