Clowns at Flow Traders to prison
79 comments / August 26, 2013
Flow Traders US caught two former employees with stealing source code. Three people are being charged.
Okay, have to admit the prison part is a little exaggerated. But the three alleged source code thieves definitely look pretty silly. Sending lines of algo code home with your mail address doesn’t look like a criminal masterplan. The code thieves may even end up in jail for years.
It looks like Flow Traders installed some tracking system on their internet for employees, and caught the Vuu/Lu couple and another guy, Glen Cressman, who had nothing to do with both other suspects.
Their attorneys claim everybody is innocent, because they didn’t use their stolen source code yet. Doesn’t sound very convincing.
Anyway, here’s full story.
instead of emailing the code, how about taking a photograph of the screen from your phone and using an ocr; is the management at these firms so bloody clueless that they think someone can steal some stupid piece of code and hurt their profits?
Of course stealing code can hurt process are you nuts!!
How:
A. the code makes money and those that steal it are able to get it working somewhere else.
OR
B. Those that steal it actually fail to make it work successfully, but, in the process, trade for flat. This will lower fill ratios for those that get stolen for and hurt their profit even though the “stealers’ don’t make money.
C. The guys steal it and are total idiots, don’t make any money, but really thought they could. The only reason the “stealers” were successful in the first place is that flow traders had the set up to monetize their skill. Flow traders still loses because they still have to replace these people and suffer the associated friction costs.
The algo code in isolation might not enough to be competitive as y also need ultra-low-latency infrastructure and the other software components. If you already had the infra and the other s/w components, you could use the algo to your advantage – but was this the case here?
It seems to be happening often, makes you wonder how many times source code has been stolen at these type of firms undetected. It’s a really stupid and useless thing to do 99.999% of the time and is the ultimate career killing move.
Furthermore it might not be trading algorithm code but optimized stock exchange connectivity code which is more likely because trading strategies have to be revisited constantly and might not be useful in a couple of months if these guys wanted to start using it.
Looks like a lucky shot. Installed a webproxy, and found two people mailing home.
A. sure i am nuts, how hard is it to just re-write the code from scratch or just create a new high frequency platform like teza, they didn’t even want the stupid goldman’s code in first place, so much for the bloody money making code
you sound like one of those clueless management at flow or imc who has never done programming in their life
or
B. they trade for flat and it hurts you, huh, that would happen even without your stupid stolen code, no?
or
C. You just contradicted yourself? in any case we finally reached an agreement that its the time of the month for you
Why does it matter if they can money off of it or not? It’s company property. I am sure they signed an agreement that anything they do in the office is company property and they stole it. I call that theft – plain and simple.
it is hard to use few lines of source code without the framework.
what do you want to say?
there is degrees of stealing, you steal companies pens, take few print-outs, copy some code which you never use vs embezzling real cash out of the company
all this talk about stealing company’s ip is bs, the ip is in my fucking head, if i go, expect all the stupid know-how and application of it to go with me
this is a legit strategy used by the management to teach existing staff a lesson of what can happen to them if they try something funny or leave, it’s like hotel california, nothing to do with some stupid ip or code
Roger should focus on his company and stop shagging 20 year old dogs!
roger needs to make an eg of what happens to those who leave and try to fuck with him, to teach the existing staff a lesson they would not forget in a hurry
oplichters de eigenaren van flow , zelf de boel getild beetje geld hebben ze niets vergleken met de grote us corparates
scammers owners of flow, itself lifted little money they have not compared against the big corparates us the lot
is that a fair translation?
no, it’s a horrible translation.
Look, it’s very simple. When you start working for a company like Flow you sign a document regarding confidentiality and normally it includes a penalty and the possibility to go to court. If you steal code or to walk away with IP then you’re simply an idiot.
Flow Traders thinks that IP/code has been stolen so they decided to go to court. The 3 guys will have every opportunity to prove that they did not steal.
All the other nonsense on this blog about this is totally irrelevant.
you sound like a german?
listen mate, real life has lot of grey areas, sending someone to jail for some stupid piece of code is just plain wrong, i know it’s a very powerful tool to teach the existing and future staff a lesson about fucking with the employer, but boy it’s at a very steep cost to another fellow human being, it’s just fucking wrong
All other nonsense arguments about your documentation, confidentiality and IP is just plain legal BS. How do you sleep at night sending somebody to jail and ruining their life for some worthless piece of code which probably originally came from open-source? Pretty ruthless even for a hardcore capitalist nazi like you.
I’m not a nazi… If you steal you should be prepared to pay it back some day. It’s up to the judge to decide if it’s actually theft and on the punishment. And maybe they can walk but that is up to the judge.
I wonder if you will be so easy on thieves if they steal your stuff….
No moron stuff here. I’ll have your comment removed
Isn’t this the problem in your statement: “sending somebody to jail and ruining their life for some worthless piece of code which probably originally came from open-source?”. Even though it was open source doesn’t mean it is free to steal. And the reason for this trial is that these codes are, I presume, anything but worthless.
looks like we have a new management and censorship in town, hello TomV
do you expect the not-moron judge and common public to understand that these codes are worthless in by itself? Even a genius like you don’t seem to be convinced that we even need a stupid trial in the first place
Well i stole worthless piece of open-source code and some pens from my office, guess i should be going to jail on count of either of these offenses?
The only reason the management wants that person in jail is to teach the existing and future staff a lesson on what can happen if they try something funny
Here’s a good eg of how you deal with such situations
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100999572
If it is a worthless piece of open-source code, why would they bother stealing it?
People do stupid mistakes all the time, you should put all of them in the prison? You really think there exists a magical piece of code which can make you rich once you come to possess it?
Intellectual Property Theft is well described by international law. It might not be as easily understood as common crimes, but it can be placed in the rows of money laundering, fraud, insider trading, bribery and tax evasion. Imprisonment could be a sentence. It looks like there is clear evidence of some misconduct. Jury will decide.
The breaking of a non-compete clause by a former employee is probably a more frequently occurring issue in the financial world. That can also lead to a court case. And also here: if you sign a contract, stick to it. But theft is more serious if you ask me.
What exactly is the misconduct, copy pasting some stupid open source code and never actually opening it, ever again?
Do you actually comprehend the difference between an actual IP and some stupid code? There is something called Patent which protects the IP; unlike in Financial Markets where you can re-write these stupid codes and be on your way in no time
If a genius like you can’t comprehend the difference between supposed stealing and an actual stealing, how do you expect the average joe on the jury to verdict on this?
Non-compete clause is a direct result of demand and supply of labour in the financial market, too many desperate people, hungry for jobs, agree to wildly unreasonable non-competes and end up signing the contract. The court of law should throw out the non-competes if its unreasonably long. This is not dissimilar to regulators throwing out the monopoly acquisitions.
Dude, relax. People don’t agree with you, and you’re not going to convince anyone with your style of argumentation. Chill.
I thought Roger H was too busy with a divorce to monitor stolen code? And Jan van K should no better then to think he has any High Frequency Code.
Flow Traders and “intellectual property”… a bit of an oxymoron. Just a bunch of lady boys with big servers.
Bye bye IMC Sydney. Your errors will be missed.
‘Bye bye IMC Sydney. Your errors will be missed.’
Misleading.
What’s going on with IMC in Sydney?
Did they stop making errors?
gave up market making Aus stocks and auctioned off their book
Word is that den hartog is out from IMC Chicago. Who did he piss off?
He was just rubbish
what a bad hire in the first place
lol, hartog’s kiss arse didn’t work, what a surprise.
All these Tier 1 IB people are just surviving on the back of monopoly businesses, they come out to real world and they realize their real worth in just about a min
I just got confirmed that Wim left the Sears Tower.
As did an HR manager by the name of Catherine.
I thought IMC were one of the top in Australia?
They sure are among the top. Not sure if the rumour is true.
But there is more action elsewhere in Asian economies than to concentrate on Aus.
Even if you are one of the top you’re not going to make any money if there isn’t enough volume.
Where trading volume in options has been going up everywhere the last 10 years, the ASX only saw an increase when they went from a contract size of 1000 to 100.
I heard they were losing money after costs, so shut it down
what a shock!
Does Optiver/Eclipse/Tibra/Timber Hill etc make money in Oz stocks?
Optiver and Eclipse definitely do. Timber Hill get so many trades I’d hope they make money. Tibra doesn’t.
why what’s wrong with tibra? they still looking for experienced traders with more than 5 years relevant trading experience?
They have a low revenue. low cost business model
yes, hire a experienced trader, he is going to make you money with his 5 years experience and you don’t need any cost like IT since trader’s experience is what it counts for; management cost of course is very essential otherwise who would manage this exceptional low revenue low cost business model
Any info on big profits at Nokia options this week?
Heard the same. Losing money after costs, so shut it down. Costs being primarily overpaid smelly tech wizards.
And there I am thinking it was the traders who were overpaid.
tech wizards aren’t overpaid genius, you are competing for their talent with microsoft, google, facebook, entrepreneur etc; traders come dime a dozen, it takes at max couple of month to replace the mindless monkey behind the screen
sounds like quite a lot personel changes mentioned above, anything happened at imc amsterdam last month?
Four MT members have left IMC Chicago the last 9 months. It is a shit show over there. Tim and Ivo fighting for dominance while screwing all the employees. Lot of people looking for jobs elsewhere already.
Tim and Ivo fighting for dominance: there isn’t much to fight, the P&L speaks clearly for Tim
what is MT members? what trading desk do Tim and Ivo run? Has IMC decided to grow up or are they still a cry baby?
I doubt Optiver/Eclipse are making much money in Oz stocks if IMC wasnt
how did you conclude that?
Did wim den Hartog get fired….
no he voluntarily resigned once he found out that he wasn’t adding any value to the company for all the money he was being paid, he felt so guilty that he decided to hang it up
“it takes at max couple of month to replace the mindless monkey behind the screen” speaks volumes about tech guys delusional existence. tragic.
no, it’s not a techie who came up with that statement genius, it has to be a trader who knows how long it ‘really’ takes to pick up the underlying skills and knowledge under a good mentor, and that’s your caveat, this industry is full of ‘go figure it out yourself’, terribly inefficient and time consuming, and it leaves a sense that mindless monkey behind the screen takes more than 2 months of training
btw, don’t confuse skills and knowledge with discipline and experience, you can’t teach discipline and experience to someone, it has to be self learnt and time required for that is entirely dependent on the individual
IMC have been #1 in Oz Stocks for long time, i dont see why Optiver/Eclipse is making money if IMC is not.
how do you mean #1, is that in volume terms, what does volume have to do with profitability?
More turnover at IMC.
Robin van Boxsel is gone.
The place is coming crumbling down, no leadership, no experience, no strategy. Just a few greedy traders and owners ruining what was once good.
So… it was good when Robin was there?
Robin was not good
Tough choice either Robin or Scott/win/Ivo/Tim.
At least Robin could run the Chicago office by himself. Did not require four people.
His leaving is a disturbing trend along with the other Management team members.
you guys making too much out of all this, people leave financial companies all the time, 50% turnover in a team in a year is no big deal, how many times the same movie over n over in any company for that matter, IMC will be fine, thank you
Optiver/IMC/Tibra companies have reached a point in terms of technology and market presence that they are employee independent.
yes, all this discussion about key person retention and dependency is just waste of time, how hard is it to comprehend this
Yah worthless companies mentioned above don’t need or deserve good people. Heck people are overheads so no people are needed. Good things gets done itself out of thin air.
stop drinking your own kool-aid and get real, there are plenty of good people like you who would happily do a better job than you and expect less compensation, how hard is it to comprehend that
any news on Tibra in London? Are they still flat or finally making some PL?
who cares whether 100 employees in london office can generate 10-20 bucks after costs
are you saying tibra makes 10-20 mio usd after costs this year?
are they making significantly more than that?