Tibra CFO leaves for futures brokerage
Tibra was founded by traders leaving Optiver in Australia, while possibly taking some trading software source code with them. Both firms are spending millions on lawyer fees ever since. A few weeks ago the party moved to a California court – something to do with the disclosure of emails by Google. Read for yourself, it’s short but it’s only for enthusiasts (pdf).
Anyway, Tibra is witnessing their own employees resigning to found a new company (Maven). Can’t be a called a surprise. Latest news is the Tibra CFO Justin van Wijngaarden (LinkedIn) jumped ship. The former Lehman Brothers banker signed for GH Futures. A London based brokerage company founded by Gedon Hertshten.
People switch jobs for any reason, but this leads to speculation about falling profitability at Tibra. Especially while they’ve resigned their membership of the London Stock Exchange a few weeks ago.
I hear even their receptionists are leaving. Will the last person out of Tibra please turn off the light?
it’s no mystery that the high frequency trading business is not so profitable in these days, the VIX is at a 5 years low, there are fears on transaction taxes and other regulatory constraints. Getco’s profits in 2012 where only 32 mil, down 80%, so why should the situation in Tibra, Optiver, IMC, etc be different? These companies run all the same strategies, people and know-how recycle constantly within these companies, this means that they are all facing the same issues at the moment. Altough Getco is diversifying into other areas, this could represent an advantage over the competitors on the long term.
JvW was pushed when it became apparent that he was more interested in playing political games than actually getting stuff done, but I don’t see how they’ll replace him since no-one wants to work for Tibra now.
‘Both firms are spending millions on lawyer fees ever since.’
this is very legit and must used strategy, you have to sue and go after all your tech staff who are leaving with ip, this discourages existing staff to plot such future moves, few million spent on legal is thus key to maintain your turf and retain your techies
this staff retention is like checking into Hotel California
”that contain either of the terms “PGP” or “Optiver” (case insensitive)’
what is PGP?
‘Read for yourself, it’s short but it’s only for enthusiasts ‘
it seems from the judgement that optiver only got date sent and other such stupid details, no real material from google?
PGP stands for Pretty Good Privacy – it was one of the first widespread e-mail encryption schemes. It controversial because Phil Zimmerman attempted to bypass US export controls on encryption technology by exporting printed source code.
‘they’ve resigned their membership of the London Stock Exchange a few weeks ago’
they are not doing stat/latency arb on ftse stocks any more?
‘I hear even their receptionists are leaving. Will the last person out of Tibra please turn off the light?’
don’t be so bitter man, it’s difficult environment for every one
‘JvW was pushed when it became apparent that he was more interested in playing political games than actually getting stuff done’
playing politics vs work becomes very apparent in small places like tibra, so you can’t get away with it like you can do with big banks
‘but I don’t see how they’ll replace him since no-one wants to work for Tibra now’
he was getting paid 120-150k? there are enough suckers for that much money, in case you haven’t noticed, there are plenty of people still around who had loved to make a living in the industry they have been working their entire working life, they are pretty useless out of it anyways and still getting paid double of what they could make outside the industry
no trading in EU anyways. People leaving is a good cost cutting exercise for them ?
Of course I know it’s up to the courts to decide and all that. Having said that though, I think Tibra is going through a hell of a lot of trouble (and money…) to prevent Optiver from reading some emails that according to Tibra won’t contain any material about copied source code anyway.
Tibra won’t just roll over unless they have to.
“We shall fight them on the beaches.”
Tibra’s poisonous culture, wholly encouraged by the founders and shareholders, has led to a general drain of the brightest and best. The management continually replace the departed with experienced new talent but it does not take long for the new recruits to see the hopelessness of it all before leaving themselves.
‘The management continually replace the departed with experienced new talent but it does not take long for the new recruits to see the hopelessness of it all before leaving themselves. ‘
Their Amsterdam operation is rock solid
‘Tibra’s poisonous culture’
define poisonous?
‘has led to a general drain of the brightest and best’
define brightest and best?
‘to see the hopelessness of it all before leaving themselves’
they are leaving because its underpaid relatively and the tech/dev is not strong enough going forward?
‘they are leaving because its underpaid relatively and the tech/dev is not strong enough going forward?’
Why do you think that’s the case? Because they’ve been treating developers like shit, so the better ones are leaving, and the ones who stay don’t give a fuck any more.
Optiver is opening an Office in Switzerland?…any comments?
Zug or Zurich?
there was speculation that they are trying to be one step ahead of the euroland regulatory situation with tobin tax n all, zug or zurich is immaterial for this situation
‘Because they’ve been treating developers like shit’
like how? underpaid/overworked/underappreciated?
@2.16 the Dutch ‘one-off’ tax on high incomes that turned out to be a two-off (for now) might also help.
Bite the bullet Tibra and pay up for Hilgers, he will rescue you
how would hilgers rescue them?
‘Dutch ‘one-off’ tax on high incomes that turned out to be a two-off (for now)’
what’s this tax rule?
if tibra developers are any good, then they could get paid a lot more going somewhere else. why do they stay then?
that’s what the comment said – good dev have moved on, shite dev left behind don’t give a fuck, did you read this comment?
‘Because they’ve been treating developers like shit, so the better ones are leaving, and the ones who stay don’t give a fuck any more.’
“define poisonous?”
http://bit.ly/YZpeyc
are tibra trading anything from sydney currently?
Didn’t Tibra’s entire finance team leave not too long ago? And then they hired JvW.
@ 8.23 Employers have to pay an extra 15% or so in tax on incomes over 150.000. So it’s not the employees that pay this, but the employers. Therefore it’s an added cost. Trading firms and football clubs aren’t very happy with this.
tibra, the land of the low talent gimp. in the right place at the right time and made some money. Now it’s not the right place and the right time and they lose some money. “you got to know when to fold em”.
well said buddy, although, i think that applies to more firms than just Tibra.
yes be sure of one thing – the two main guys from VDM will be going to prison. One is hiding i Monaco for a good reason. they will be tried in court and sentenced.
‘in the right place at the right time and made some money’
standard riposte of a loser.
there are very few people who luck into success. it is a long road between deciding to set up a trading company and making it successful.
there are plenty of dreamers who didn’t dare resign in the mid/late 2000s and also plenty of people who did, tried to set up a firm and didn’t make it.
personally i don’t have much respect for the founders (am ex-tibra) but to
write them off as lucky is disingenuous.
‘there are very few people who luck into success. it is a long road between deciding to set up a trading company and making it successful.’
Are you trying to say that the Tibra founders were smarter than other people who set up trading companies, and that’s why they succeeded?
I beg to differ. I think the difference in success is waaaaaay bigger than the difference in intellect/skill in the trading game. The right time at the right place goes a long way in explaining this.
Tibra would have been way less successful hadn’t HK gone crazy in 2007. At that time skill really wasn’t the deciding factor. Just being able to click a button was enough. You really needed to try hard in that time not to make money. The financial crisis in 2008 after that was a nice bonus. If it was mainly skill, they should still be killing it. If it was luck, they’ll have a hard time making money in the current markets.
I think the tibra founders were brave in setting up a new company. no doubt about that. but don’t mistake bravery with talent. i reckon they have low talent, and were lucky. they are losing money now apparently which would indicate a lack of talent. and i also don’t respect the founders, mainly for their hypocrisy.
‘‘in the right place at the right time and made some money’
standard riposte of a loser’
so you think as many dot com millionnaires can come out in 1990 as in 2000?
‘there are very few people who luck into success. it is a long road between deciding to set up a trading company and making it successful’
understand the difference between pure luck, and luck helping out on the way
‘there are plenty of dreamers who didn’t dare resign in the mid/late 2000s and also plenty of people who did, tried to set up a firm and didn’t make it’
so all those who didn’t make it are surely failures and tibra didn’t need any luck, they could have done this at any time in history?
‘personally i don’t have much respect for the founders (am ex-tibra) but to
write them off as lucky is disingenuous.’
nobody is writing them off as lucky, they are smart, hard working people, so are lot of others, the difference being they took the risk, made great decisions, had good timing and good luck to go with it, nothing more complicated than that
‘I beg to differ. I think the difference in success is waaaaaay bigger than the difference in intellect/skill in the trading game. The right time at the right place goes a long way in explaining this.’
the problem lies in the fact that small decisions at the start can result in exponential differences in wealth at the end, it’s much harder to execute your way back to right track and catch up in any meaningful way
‘i also don’t respect the founders, mainly for their hypocrisy.’
what hypocrisy?
“‘i also don’t respect the founders, mainly for their hypocrisy.’
what hypocrisy?”
Yeah! Define hypocrisy!!!
““‘i also don’t respect the founders, mainly for their hypocrisy.’
what hypocrisy?”
Yeah! Define hypocrisy!!!”
Tibra is in such bad shape that its management can’t afford a dictionary now?
I trade CEE region,but i come here occasionally to check because this might be one of the funniest blogs 😀 Although sometimes with useful information 😉
Hypocrisy = actively seeking out Optiver employees, encouraging them to break non compete clauses and work covertly under aliases, while slapping on non competes on their own staff and enforcing these vigorously.
@ 11:51pm. EXACTLY!
‘while slapping on non competes on their own staff and enforcing these vigorously’
welcome to the industry, be happy their clawback was limited to book value on share buyback
‘the problem lies in the fact that small decisions at the start can result in exponential differences in wealth at the end, it’s much harder to execute your way back to right track and catch up in any meaningful way’
Great point. Firms spend a lot of time in market discovery and adapting to conditions.
The founders of Tibra learnt the business from the best and implemented the highest possible technological solution to the market without loosing much time in innovation or market discovery (Something that other firms are still suffering from)
Define “Market discovery”
Define “Innovation”
Define “Implemented”
The novel idea of stealing proprietary software (“innovation”), doing so without being caught red-handed (“market discovery”) and then running it within your new company (“implemented”). Right?
What currency is that? Yen? HKD?
where are these numbers coming from? Isn’t all this supposed to be confidential?
somebody from HR must have forgotten some excel sheets in the copy room, anyway it seems realistic based on some known figures
As a Dutchman, I could only say ‘Hulde’
Why is Robin not on this list?
are all these people yes men or did they actually work for it? can you actually apply to be a yes men or do you just get yourself in first then work your way down?
anyone with similiar lists for optiver or tibra?
bs figures. just yet another marketing gimmick to get you to apply for a role in imc.
so it seems IMC is making more than Optiver now?
‘can you actually apply to be a yes men or do you just get yourself in first then work your way down?’
unfortunately you cannot apply directly for it, you have to work your way down but this will be difficult if you are not dutch and trader. If you are a non-duch IT guy forget about it
‘What currency is that? Yen? HKD?’
haha, why on earth would it be denominated in ccy they don’t even maintain physical presence, its either eur or usd, take it as approx
‘where are these numbers coming from? Isn’t all this supposed to be confidential?’
sounds like it’s coming from up his arse, expect more shite to pile up on top of it
‘somebody from HR must have forgotten some excel sheets in the copy room, anyway it seems realistic based on some known figures’
it’s not from the hr you moron, it’s from the cfo’s office
‘This company is a joke and makes it at least once per month into this blog!’
wow, what a shame, they should shut down their company out of embarrassment off some muppets
‘are all these people yes men or did they actually work for it? can you actually apply to be a yes men or do you just get yourself in first then work your way down?’
you get to vp on proficiency of your work, thereafter rise is bit random, those who think being in right place at right time is not important are deluded abt realities of this industry
‘ just yet another marketing gimmick to get you to apply for a role in imc.’
what marketing gimmick? everyone on this blog knows you can make millions if you get to top of food chain in this industry?
‘so it seems IMC is making more than Optiver now?’
how did you reach that conclusion?
‘there are real figures, but Hartog seems to be a bit over payed for doing a completely irrelevant job, or not?’
surely hartog wasn’t getting paid half a buck at gs was he? and this for just 4 months, who else would even pay half of that to him, not a market rate for sure
‘you have to work your way down but this will be difficult if you are not dutch and trader. If you are a non-duch IT guy forget about it’
another sad reality, age and ethnicity truly count, there are all sort of mafia in the industry, dutch, jewish, sports jocks, irish, italian, english, american, ivy league, oxbridge, the worst one is feminst
and if you’re a Dutch IT guy, can you make it in IMC?
how about the Yanks and Aussies? they should be getting their fair share too right?
Wait, is that the same Tim Edwards who let all his guests pay for their own drinks at his farewell event in Hong Kong?
Half of these people wouldn’t survive at any different company. Take JT. He doesn’t even know whether to buy or sell futures after an option trade.
@6.42am,
Why the hell you want to trade futures after an option trade ?
‘Half of these people wouldn’t survive at any different company. Take JT. He doesn’t even know whether to buy or sell futures after an option trade.’
a typical comment from a moron trader.
How cares whether he or even you know how to trader futures. It will be done by a hedging system anyway. And guess who designed and developed it. Idiot.
Define “designed and developed”
Define “hedging system”
‘is that the same Tim Edwards who let all his guests pay for their own drinks at his farewell event in Hong Kong?’
that sounds like a tim is dutch?
‘Half of these people wouldn’t survive at any different company’
who cares, rob n pot thinks they are hard to replace and mark to market, good for them
“Take JT. He doesn’t even know whether to buy or sell futures after an option trade.’
bought call, sold future; bought put, bought future
sold call, bought future; sold put, sold future
what a rocket science, don’t you guys already have some sort of auto delta hedger?
‘You are getting paid anywhere near 1mm for agreeing a better clearing or rebate fee.’
You aren’t getting paid anywhere near 1mm for agreeing a better clearing or rebate fee?
‘Why the hell you want to trade futures after an option trade ?’
futures are more liquid and thus used as underlying for options on it?
‘How cares whether he or even you know how to trader futures’
you are missing a trick my friend
‘It will be done by a hedging system anyway. And guess who designed and developed it. Idiot.’
who did? JT? And pls don’t call me Idiot. Idiot.
‘Define “designed and developed”’
he spoke to dev team and helped sign off and go live in prod
‘Define “hedging system”’
moronic hedging would be to join the bid and offer based on order book, better would be to dime and lift passive or slow resting orders
*understand
‘IT is fundamentally replaceable, not 1 dev can act like billy big balls in a team of 100 dev, but trading is different game, 1 trader can make more money than 100 traders combined, how hard is this for a fucking techie to under, even though you are stupid fucking techie’
It’s mindless bullcrap. Money is made by trading systems and trader is only a monkey to control moments when to enable or disable it.
10:47 that’s just what you like to think
@ March 9th, 2013 at 5:53 am
JT was a Dev and worked on tibra’s trading system right ?
11:19 am I like to think very realistically. In mm world a trader is just a stupid monkey behind hft trading system and a col fitter designed and developed by it and quants.
The systems are the real brains. Don’t need traders anymore.
the system is a tool; people using the tool are rewarded, not the builders of the tool
because, and there you miss the point, the users decide what you are building
if you don’t agree, start your own company (good luck)
(fyi if a trader can do nothing more than press a button, he deserves nothing extra, i do agree that with you, but in that case i’d fire him)
to the guy who accounts for 94% of the posts … do ya think you could make your point more efficiently? better yet, not at all. or start your own blog and entertain yourself.
maybe the site should be loaded through an obligatory poll
who is reponsible for the profit of a trading company
a) trader
b) quant/developer
c) it
then depending on your choice, you will be forwarded to the forum (or in case of the last two choices: to some nerd site)
‘anyone with similiar lists for optiver or tibra?’
Heard Tibra’s list goes along those lines:
1. $0
2. $0
3. $0
4. $0
5. $0
…
tibra definately pays market rates. Not as skewed as IMC, but the money is equally spread between everyone, hence less incentive for top performers who pay for the laggards.
Bullshit – Tibra Aus tries to pay devs 100k including super when market rate is 125k plus super, and Optiver Aus is similar. Susquehana Aus pays devs 150k. Bonus at Tibra is probably less skewed IMC but it’s just as arbitrary and not necessarily a reflection of actual performance.
‘the money is equally spread between everyone’
Yeah, they claim they pay 50% of profit to shareholders and 50% to employees. But they don’t mention that almost all shareholders work there and participate in the bonus pool. Moreover they have an exponential bonus curve (this was confirmed by seniors some time ago). This means all the money is divided among top ranks and it’s not any different to IMC.
‘Hypocrisy = actively seeking out Optiver employees, encouraging them to break non compete clauses and work covertly under aliases, while slapping on non competes on their own staff and enforcing these vigorously.’
Is this a reference to all the guys at Mavn ?
The California court filing’s actually pretty interesting. First of all, it shows that the guys working on the case for Optiver are quite the tools. They have been litigating the crap out of the case for years now and only now have they come ’round to filing ex parte requests for evidence.
(For those that don’t quite follow the terminology – an ex parte request is when you as a court to allow you to seize something – like evidence – without the other party knowing about it. This lets you show up at whatever location with bailiffs and take away/copy whatever you need. This is something you do at the very beginning of a case – actually, before you even file suit)
So, these guys re now out in California, burning buckets of money to try to get Google to give them access to emails. Why? Because the guys from Tibra apparently have gone out and deleted incriminating emails. Duh.
This in turn means that if Optiver can actually prove this, they guys responsible, including mr. D.B. may actually find themselves facing jail time. The plot thickens… now if only Optiver could hire lawyers with more than half a brain…
Tibra is not doing well, and when the CFO, who knows everything about their finances, leaves this is not good.
Let’s short this company or change ship ASAP!
let’s go to IMC since they pay good bonuses there