Old documentary on floor to screen migration
Last post I mentioned a few local market makers which left the building. Calimero and Wintrading couldn’t earn a living anymore. Rising costs, higher risks and lower profits. Calimero never had a losing year by the way.
Back in the good old days of the open outcry trading the market maker landscape was completely different. Large firms disappeared after the migration to the screen, and some of the biggest traders turned tiny.
Anyway – found a nice professional documentary from Edwin Trommelen with a lot of attention to Wintrading and a Belgian trader from Saen Options (not the Calimero trader, who is in the still above for Saen). Was shown on national television some decade ago, but turns out it is still available on the internet. Not possible to embed it on this site, so you’ll just have to follow this link : afscheid van de vloer. It’s in Dutch and without subtitles – but it has a lot more to show than just a few shots from the pit.
It’s a good watch for non insiders too. It’s not only nostalgia and spotting yourself or your friends on television – it’s good television.
TOM
Other news. TOM, the new option exchange, traded their one millionth option contract. Good news for them. Perhaps this could fuel some price war between Euronext and TOM. Although the latter is bragging about unrealistic better execution prices for retail investors. Can’t imagine the quotes on TOM are any tighter than Euronext. Something to check on another rainy day.
Die docu Afscheid van de vloer doet het niet, klopt dat?
It works over here.
ok thanks, probably some corporate IT settings blocking it.
Will watch at home then.
Schanulleke!!!
Nice docu.
These documents Farewell floor does not, right?
Schanulleke the doll Suzy from the comic series Spike and Suzy , where she was the first album ( Rikki en Wiske in Chocowakije ) occurs
Not so relevant for this topic, but yesterday i found a story
about a retail trader who turned 100.000 into 41 million by selling options.
And she did that during volatile times (financial crisis).
Not bad…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXy9HoWX0es
She started selling premium coming out of crisis, it be interesting to see if she stops doing that going into next crisis.
Would love to watch the movie with subs.
yes such old skool nostalgic.
IMC to close Zug office in January.
IMC is not going to close any office in January. Please stop putting non-sense comments with the only purpose to create panic and fear. We all know that the industry is having a challenging time. IMC employees in Zug know that the office is doing well considering current volumes and volatility levels and there is no reason to worry.
Thanks JW, that’s exactly what you said about Hong Kong
Hong Kong was not closed because of revenue issues, it simply was too much overhead given that everything could be done from the Sydney office, how many times do we have to repeat this?
Referred to the “nobody has to worry” part (thanks for mentioning revenue issues though). What’s different with Ams vs Zug? What can’t be done from Amsterdam that’s done in Zug or vice versa?
Amsterdam is traditionally headoffice and top- management presumably wants to stay in Amsterdam?
Zug? What about tax?
Zug and AMS trade different strategies, you can’t run one office from another they are totally different
I’d like a permanent copy of that video “afscheid van de vloer” for watching once I learn Dutch. Can anyone post it to YouTube and send a link, so we can download it? I can’t seem to figure out how to extract flash videos hosted on viddler.
I used this program (Streaming Video Recorder trial) to download the documentary from viddler to my pc:
http://voices.yahoo.com/how-download-viddler-videos-5294751.html?cat=59
‘Ams vs Zug’
even if they trade different strategies in theory AMS could be moved to Zug, but not vice-versa. Zug has much better taxes and more competent IT and trading employees. BUT AMS has the top-management sitting there, that’s why most likely both offices will stay
why can’t Zug be moved to AMS?
The strong Swiss franc is not helping, given the fact that Zug’s profits are generated mostly in Euros but its costs are in CHF!
With costs you mean the salaries and the office rent, not trading fees. IMC shouldn’t be paying large base salaries and their rent won’t kill them. If they make enough money in trading, they will manage to survive the extra (euro) costs for salaries and rent.
‘If they make enough money in trading, they will manage to survive the extra (euro) costs for salaries and rent.’
Exactly, that’s why employees are quite ok
man, speak for yourself, as an employee in Zug i am not ok, bonuses decrease every year, I guess this year bonus will be even less than 100k
A bonus of less than 100k is according to the vast majority of people (the 99%) still ‘quite ok’. Stop whining and go and make some money.
‘I guess this year bonus will be even less than 100k’
this guy is drunk on his own cool-aid
Stop pretending being such a big swinging dick(head), probably had one off >100k anyways and believe it should be standard.
Better get used to it and find a flatmate coz automation is coming your Zug way and will flush your added value shortly.
‘The strong Swiss franc is not helping’
EUR=1.2CHF, unlimited bid on EUR by SNB, Good Morning to you.
‘this guy is drunk on his own cool-aid’
I read this expression already several times on this blog, can somebody please explain the meaning of this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid
‘Better get used to it and find a flatmate coz automation is coming your Zug way and will flush your added value shortly.’
it is already all automated
well if its already automated, what do you do then?
control that automation works
can’t that be automated?
no
well then can you be replaced easily ?
Problem with Zug is that no capable guys can fill in the upcoming gaps.
The problem with Zug is that the MD trading has no clue of the trading business
How do you mean no capable guys can fill in the upcoming gaps?
there are no upcoming gaps, traders in Zug are doing a good job, stop bad mouthing please
‘The problem with Zug is that the MD trading has no clue of the trading business’
than why did he get this position?
we have been through this whole number of times – saying yes to above, being able to manage them, earning the trust, showing leadership potential etc.
‘traders in Zug are doing a good job’
why can’t they be automated out?
‘why can’t they be automated out?’
man, you must have to clue of automated trading, you always need people to monitor automation, improve automation, and improve trading itself. That’s what traders do and this cannot be automated
Love it how HR chimes in now and then, like a chubby greying school teacher chastising all the naughty boys.
You, my girl, are in a pretty darned lame role right here.
Remember, it’s never too late give yourself a good old firing, leaving you free to persue that marketing career that you really wanted.
HR is also a communication role, so it is ok if they communicate to IMC employees also via this blog
also? This is the main media for HR IMC to communicate
if you would work at IMC you would know that HR is present at each employee evaluation meeting and keeps a constant and genuine communication with all employees to address their concerns. HR does not need this blog to operate.
Uit het regeerakkoord:
• De hoogte van de maximale variabele beloning binnen de financiële sector wordt wettelijk vastgelegd op 20 procent van de vaste beloning.
Ik zeg: dag Amsterdam, hallo Zug!
‘you must have to clue of automated trading, you always need people to monitor automation, improve automation, and improve trading itself. That’s what traders do and this cannot be automated’
yes, i am new to this kind of automation, does timberhill do this sort of automation?
The coalition agreement:
• The height of the maximum variable remuneration in the financial sector is legally set at 20 percent of the fixed salary.
I say day in Amsterdam, Zug hello!
when HR thinks it contributes trader P&L, you know your firm is fucked.
tea ladies, & massage girls are another story however.
erg leuk om die documantaire weer eens te zien. ik wilde helemaal niet maar rien had toegestemd en toen moest ik wel. achteraf wel blij mee trouwens.
ik wenst jullie allemaal veel geluk en winst.
succes
fred
‘HR is present at each employee evaluation meeting and keeps a constant and genuine communication’
that’s not true
Is this 20% bonus cap Industry-wide or government-backed banks only?
It is to apply to the entire Dutch financial sector, not just the handful of government supported banks.
As well they should. Bonuses should only be awarded to the managers and computers, they make the money, although the 20% would also apply to the managers. But you get my point. The traders are vastly overpaid and spoilt. About time the government steps in and restores some sanity.
What makes the managers to do deserve as much vs traders?
traders do not make money because if their skills in our days, they are taught the models, the trading strategies and how to use a trading system system. In few words, their contribution to P&L is zero in the majority of cases, even if they think they generate all P&L. There are very rare cases in which a trader comes up with a new (and profitable) strategy by him/herself, in these cases a bib bonus is more than deserved
‘There are very rare cases in which a trader comes up with a new (and profitable) strategy by him/herself, in these cases a bib bonus is more than deserved’
Maybe true for conventional cash cow trading spots. SPX/SX5E/Kospi
People who have started new businesses within existing architecture have been more than amptly rewarded at Optiver/IMC. That is why they are 600 people company today.
Hello transaction tax!
very nice to see that documentary again. I did not want but rien had consented, and when I had to. afterwards happy indeed.
I wish you all good luck and profit.
success
fred
‘Is this 20% bonus cap Industry-wide or government-backed banks only?’
i guess, junior employee would start getting shares etc much faster in private companies for dividend compensation? If there is any compensation power still outstanding that is.
‘What makes the managers to do deserve as much vs traders?’
Previous commentator saying ‘manager/computers deserve bonus’ is being sarcastic?
‘their contribution to P&L is zero in the majority of cases’
not correctly worded, a trader’s performance can only be judged with excellent trader and target trader trading the same spot simultaneously for reasonable amount of time. Hard exercise to do and difficult to repeat for reliable results using law of large number.
‘There are very rare cases in which a trader comes up with a new (and profitable) strategy by him/herself’
there is no bloody strategy for normal trader, its either long/short/flat.
Quant Trader is different case.
‘Maybe true for conventional cash cow trading spots. SPX/SX5E/Kospi’
Definitely not true, the best trader is posted to trade SPX/SX5E/KOSPI.
‘People who have started new businesses within existing architecture’
stat arb, latency arb, dispersion, special sit etc.
Either way, start packing your shit, you guys are moving
When I was at IMC HR did not sit in on reviews. Only the manager did.
I think they might sit in on poor performance discussions. Also, I very much doubt this blog is posted on by any of IMC’s management especially not HR. In fact, I heard that they prohibited employees from posting on these blogs in their employee handbook.
Anybody know the latest on the Tibra v Optiver case?
‘In fact, I heard that they prohibited employees from posting on these blogs in their employee handbook.’
No, there is not prohibition and I doubt that you ever worked for IMC HR
I never said I worked for HR – I said “when I was at IMC HR…” – but that was a couple years ago.
why did you leave IMC?
it was simply a horrible work environment
+1
Check out “Floored”, a similar documentary on the demise of open outcry trading on the floor of CME: if you liked the Dutch one, you’re going to love the American version: http://flooredthemovie.com//
‘In fact, I heard that they prohibited employees from posting on these blogs in their employee handbook’
you can do that from your phone or home laptop or have exceptions?
you wouldn’t believe how responsive IMC HR has been to comments posted on this blog. I am serious, IMC employees should use this as direct 360 feedback.
‘it was simply a horrible work environment’
where are you these days, doing what?
“you wouldn’t believe how responsive IMC HR has been to comments posted on this blog.”
In that case: IMC would be a so much better work environment if the chair massages had a happy ending.
I do not think IMC HR is reacting on this blog, they read it for sure but it is not evident that they react on it. Only one exception: they removed the night shift trader job posting after it has been heavily criticized on this blog.
‘IMC would be a so much better work environment if the chair massages had a happy ending’
stop being a cheapstake, you are already mooching off the company for food and massages, go buy your own fuck, doesn’t cost much, cheap dutchchies.
‘I do not think IMC HR is reacting on this blog’
what did you expect them to do, give you big bonus?
Fred winia, is a nice guy. Sad to see trading turn into gizmo computer freak show.
what’s sad about gizmo computer, it’s like saying i’m not going to watch imax because i am nostalgic on real theatre, you can do both if you want, no one is stopping you.
so imc is closing down at least some of the zug office? or at least that is how ‘moving back to amsterdam’ should be interpreted?
if zug is meant for tax activities, non-tax activities could be moved back to centre of power in amsterdam?
Rubish. They Announced to reduce / move 55 of their 101 Jobs to Amsterdam or Eliminate them. Make the math, you do Not require 50 remaining to Run sa. That meins another 20-30 will go in the following 12 months or if they Continue to Not make Profit it will be closed Down completly. Simple truth
Zug office will be 10 traders and 10 HR staff. lol.
best traders promoted to IMC HR roles.
worst trader will become MD Zug replacing J? good idea
Zug office will be 10 traders inside 10 HR staff. lol.
‘best traders promoted to IMC HR roles’
no call it ‘trader burn out’
get your facts straight, there isn’t any reduction of positions at IMC Zug
lol, can somebody in zug confirm this, has anybody been shown the door or not?
I can confirm that nobody has been shown the door, the above rumors are pure fantasy
are you from HR?
So what are the trader salaries at IMC nowadays?
who cares about salaries, wasn’t it about bonus, can you even put a finger to it?
‘So what are the trader salaries at IMC nowadays?’
above market average
who all are included in this ‘market’?
all prop trading companies are the market
Most people in Zug office who would be fired are not going to be Traders earning shit loads but support staff i.e. IT.
Expected date of announcement is about 20th Nov
‘Expected date of announcement is about 20th Nov’
stop creating panic, nobody will be fired from IMC Zug. These rumors are going on since months and nobody has been fired.
‘all prop trading companies are the market’
who all are included in this ‘all prop trading companies’?
‘These rumors are going on since months’
so you saying all smoke and no fire?
Hard to believe?
‘They Announced to reduce / move 55 of their 101 Jobs to Amsterdam ‘
why does IMC move people to Amsterdam, is this really saving costs or is it an excuse to fire later?
The main reason is not to save costs but taxes. Holland has a higher tax than Switzerland, if the Zug office is generating only costs because trading PL is low it makes sense to move these costs to Amsterdam. In this way less taxes are payed since the overall profit in Amsterdam is reduced by the additional costs of the Zug it is better to move it from Amsterdam to Zug, and take advantage of lower taxes. That’s what probably IMC did in the past. By saving taxes IMC will probably be able to keep more people.
that’s the problem with IMC: they hire too many people, replace the seniors who invented something with juniors who just operate a system (IMC traders). Top managements really believes that the value is in computer programs… Now we see the results, Zug used to be the most profitable office few years ago, all those who made the office so profitable left in the meantime and a bunch of junior PhDs waste their time by running a system they did not develop.
‘why does IMC move people to Amsterdam, is this really saving costs or is it an excuse to fire later?’
just wait and watch, you’ll soon what actually happens, no need to speculate needlessly, needless to say, this blog would have all the details ; )
‘In this way less taxes are payed since the overall profit in Amsterdam is reduced by the additional costs of the Zug it is better to move it from Amsterdam to Zug, and take advantage of lower taxes. ‘
Nice Global Tax Arbitrage!
‘Top managements really believes that the value is in computer programs’
Top Management is right, why waste money on overpaid lazy old stupid traders when the computer can do the same trick.
‘all those who made the office so profitable left in the meantime’
why did they leave?
‘Zug used to be the most profitable office few years ago’
lot of places used to be very profitable few years ago, lot of them have gone bankrupt since, in case you haven’t noticed the business environment, good morning.
‘a bunch of junior PhDs waste their time by running a system they did not develop’
what’s wrong with junior phds running it? what else you want them to do? where else are they going to make 100k+?
‘what’s wrong with junior phds running it?’
you do not need young phds to run it, just take former call center staff for 40+, they’ll perform the same
any comments on transaction tax that could impact the move to low tax places again
there will be no impact on low tax places as a transaction tax would kill the whole business
‘you do not need young phds to run it, just take former call center staff for 40+’
do you think the young phds can extract more of the trading system/markets by enhancements than what they are being paid over 40k?
‘they’ll perform the same’
what makes you so sure?
‘there will be no impact on low tax places as a transaction tax would kill the whole business’
it’s about time anyways, the industry is dead anyways, 2010 was the dead cat bounce
http://hereisthecity.com/2012/11/13/city-bonuses-join-the-real-world-down-from-33000-a-head-to-6400/
‘do you think the young phds can extract more of the trading system/markets by enhancements than what they are being paid over 40k?’
no, this is confirmed by the facts. A team of HR girls ready to learn how to operate a trading system would have made the same P&L
then why is the management still hiring the phds? maybe it gives them emotional satisfaction of having talented people around who can give smart ideas and contribute to the research?
yes
if you know anything about trading, you would know the positions and trading have to match with your emotional set-up, case closed, phds in.
[…] guess you may remember the interesting documentary about close of the open outcry trading in Amsterdam, zooming in on a few traders. Unfortunately […]