IMC is trading for size. Against IMC.
48 comments / July 5, 2010
IMC’s trading business is growing rapidly down under. It has taken the zero sum game of derivative trading to a distinct higher level. The company has been buying derivatives from itself in six months in 2007. Agreed, at times it’s useful to mark the last traded price in your favour so it looks your big position is doing well. However, the exchange isn’t particularly happy with you trying to manipulate the market.
The exchange of Australia, ASX, has found evidence of IMC trading against itself for an astonishing number of 9705 times between February 1th and September 14th in 2007. Over nine thousand times of selftrading, that’s more than an occasional junior trader “defending” a position. Last month the exchange tribunal fined the company for $85.000.
All the trades occurred when an algo trading system traded actively against the market, including the market maker unit of IMC. For some reason this innocent explanation of IMC doesn’t sound like the whole story. Don’t exactly know which prices have been manipulated, but the high number of selftrading and the sudden stop in September suggest something else. The lawyers advised IMC not to contest the malpractice, which was apparently highly appreciated by the ASX tribunal. On the other hand, a $85k fine is small change for IMC but still a lot when it’s really a matter of innocent different systems doing occassional trades with other company units.
Anyway, ASX believes IMC Pacific didn’t do it on purpose and no investor got hurt during the party (right). Let’s fine them for $8,75 per selftrade. That will teach them. In the meantime, rival market maker Optiver in the Pacific earned the 35th place in the most wanted employers in Australia in Business Review Weekly last month.
The exchange of Australia, ASX, has found evidence of IMC trading against itself for an astonishing number of 9705 times between February 1th and September 14th in 2007. Over nine thousand times of selftrading, that’s more than an occasional junior trader “defending” a position. Last month the exchange tribunal fined the company for $85.000.
All the trades occurred when an algo trading system traded actively against the market, including the market maker unit of IMC. For some reason this innocent explanation of IMC doesn’t sound like the whole story. Don’t exactly know which prices have been manipulated, but the high number of selftrading and the sudden stop in September suggest something else. The lawyers advised IMC not to contest the malpractice, which was apparently highly appreciated by the ASX tribunal. On the other hand, a $85k fine is small change for IMC but still a lot when it’s really a matter of innocent different systems doing occassional trades with other company units.
Anyway, ASX believes IMC Pacific didn’t do it on purpose and no investor got hurt during the party (right). Let’s fine them for $8,75 per selftrade. That will teach them. In the meantime, rival market maker Optiver in the Pacific earned the 35th place in the most wanted employers in Australia in Business Review Weekly last month.
IMC is not a single company competing against the world but a bunch of small islands competing against anyone, including other departments. Technically it may have been self-trading, from an IMC perspective it's not. The fine is ridiculous.
Uhoh, so how do you know in which department you should be?
Duh, the profitable one off course. If you're not, just hang around at a succesfull desk and pretend you're the manager. Has worked before.
Furthermore people trade with several little programs – it is difficult to coordinate the programs – especially if you have vendor systems.
Furthermore coordination takes time which limits the opportunities – I think the key is like Eurex to avoid that self trades show up as updates on the last traded price.
I think these are cash equity transactions and not derivative transactions. Also, ASX people pride themselves in knowing shit about trading and finance. Hence the frequent random rulings and fines.
Compliance is not a priority at IMC. Is this news?
First post is right, nothing more to it.
Wow… we're hitting all these trades. Hope they don't get busted…
Marsupial canibalisation
everyone knows imc does not make money from options market making so it must have been a mistake – they are too stupid! ok, they are not as bad as all options and saen, but still, it doesnt get much worse
How is all options doing this year actually?
i really wonder who writes these comments. I would probably say: the more frustrated you are, the more active on this blog. On the long run, only the best capitalized firms will be around, all the small ones will go. Look at Eclipse, Webb etc.
WEBB is just 4-5 people .. they dont need too much to survive .. what about eclipse .. are they doing anything in europe ?
how abt nyenburgh ?
How about Van der Moolen? How are they doing? I have been travelling for about 3 years in the Central African Republic so I am wondering if there's any news about them and if I shall apply for a job with them?
I think it's better you go sell vuvuzela's on the street…
yes but even capitalized companies like all options will only stomach a certain amount of losses each year. if they dont make money trading options, i agree allard and ralph should go and sell vuvuzelas on the dam rak!
Eclipse stops their activities in Europe…..
http://www.eclipseoptions.com/showJob.php?experienced_options_trader_amsterdam
If you can spend 3 years in the Central African Republic you should get a job with the other idiot who is wondering how All Options are doing.Have you nothing better to do than poking your nose in other companies business.Go enjoy the World Cup final or do something constructive like join the mastradbation desk at IMC .
probably because they fired all the HR and IT people. Now there is nobody to update their website. All the HH must be rejoicing about receiving another batch of similar trader's CVs for whom there is no work.
well, first of all in this blog there is some level of frustration indeed. second, a general question to all of you: how long do you actually think manual option trading will be out there? why would any company continue paying bonus when a model does the job? i am just curious since you make fun of companies dropping out already… let me tell you, you will be next… and third, you dutch people will get your ass kicked on sunday. it is getting time someone does. and then all of you can sell those annoying vuvuzelas on the dam rak…
uhmmm mister, you are the one sounding frustrated…much more than all the other anonymouses around here
hes right though. spain is going to win :-)))))
July 8, 2010 6:22 PM
is a definitely a German
Head hunters have had a record 2009 and 2010.
nyenburgh? what about them? not small in terms of head count (approaching 100), but not so profitable (certainly not compared to their peers). company was making micro profits for years (< 1m). their best year was 2008 when they made 5m but this was largely thanks to a f*cked up currency hedge and lots of luck. they also did some asset management (in the past) and worked with sasker de boer (ex aot). (he ran their real estate fund where several million euros went mysteriously "missing" that nyenburgh then had to pay for.) they don't do options by the way. anyway, i know a couple of guys there, they are always complaining about management filling their own pockets and cheating the traders on their bonuses. the stories i could tell you about that (don't want to get them into trouble though). company has an office in estonia. !?!?
by profits u mean trading profits ? 5m cant cover the cost of 50 employees and all the trading infrastructure overhead blah blah .. estonia office is where the east european developers sit ?
ecplise is very much in Europe, though not sure why they would have such a tiny presence .. wud that cover any of the infrastructure and overhead costs till their european biz develops a critical mass ..
http://www.nu.nl/economie/2287157/bankiers-moeten-wachten-bonus.html
Any thoughts on what this will mean for european trading firms like IMC and Optiver ?
what it means? nothing. prop trading firms are not regulated. unless you make a law for any company's bonuses to be deferred, this law will only apply for regulated banks.
It applies to anybody under the CAD regime, so also asset managers, brokers, AND trading firms with a broker/dealer license. Most trading firms only have a dealer license or no license at all so they will not be affected. The ones who do (I believe Optiver is a broker/dealer, but not sure) will have to follow the same rules as banks when it comes to bonusses. Tom, does IMC have a broker / dealer license?
There is thing called consolidated reporting, so since IMC has Cardano, Faxtor, and Ooyens &vE the top holding must have a DNB license and will have to follow the new bonus guidelines for the entire firm. Unless they moved the top holding to Zug along with all the cash traders? Don't know if the new rules also apply in Switzerland
For all the APT bashers out there, the APT was able to convince the politicians that the bonus rules should only apply to banks and not to trading firms. The original proposal was for all financial firms including trading firms.If you don't hear from the APT it doesn't mean they don't do anything.
Driewerf houzee voor de APT! Dan maar.
There are too many people on this blog at this time. It's amazing.
Do u check this blog first thing in the morning ? It's amazing. get a life pal ..
Get a life,huh!!!! I bet your life is so entertaining that in your spare time you have the need to attack on other people's comments…all the arrogant traders end up losing all they make….thats a lesson you have to learn buddy!
HOW CAN I START a NEW SUBJECT BLOG
You can't, do you own the website? send an e-mail to jack, maybe he will print your story.
I dont think I've ever come across such a collection of obnoxious, low IQ, wanna be big time small time, sh1t talking, bothersome, irritating bunch of motherfcukers as those who frequent and post on this blog..myself excluded obviously
okay now that we have established that AO, IMC suck and that the people commenting on this blog are useless low life, can we stop repeating ourselves .. its tiring ..
yep, and it's way too hot for such smalltalk
Hi guys,
Just graduated the master course, and I’m looking to apply for a trader position in Amsterdam (I am from Eastern Europe), and I have a few questions, since most of you have some insights about the trading area there.
1.Which one from Optiver, IMC, All Options or Tibra treats its employees the best? ( in terms of benefits, career opportunities etc.).
2.At which from the companies mentioned above is the recruitment process the toughest ?
Thanks a lot 🙂
Cheers.
Optiver and Tibra by far have the toughest Math exam.
As a trainee or a fresher you need’nt worry, the compensation is equally good across all companies. All Options recently tried to fire a whole bunch of people, something you might want to consider. Other than that.. Good luck.
Thanks mate,
However, it’s funny because, to me, it seems that Optiver tests are the easiest 🙂 . Anyway, I’ll see when i’ll take them.
Also, I read on another forum that, like you said, in terms of compensation, each of these “Big 4” pay very similar salaries, with no big differences.
Anyway, I just came across Eclipse Options’s website and they seem to be a pretty good firm too.
( someone said here that they are former Optiver guys).
Anyone has some info’s about this company, and can you recommend me other firms similar to Optiver-IMC-AllOptions-Tibra in Amsterdam ?
Thank you.
if it’s only a masters degree you have to offer I wouldn’t be too picky .For a sucker from eastern europe having a job with any of the big 2 firms would be dream come true.
What do you need more than a masters degree? Most firms seem to ask for a bachelors/academic degree. In Holland the highest academic degree is a masters degree.
Do you think they value a higher amount of degrees? I study both law and management (Business Economics) at a masterlevel. Just finished management and am rounding up law. Looking forward to a job in trading.
Eclipse is a good shop too. Small and niche. However there was a rumour on this site that they closed their Europe office. Not sure but if they are still around Holland, definitely a good shop to be at.
Degrees dont really matter….. at the end of the day its how quick and fast you are at numbers that gets you the score on the test.
I agree, but to be invited for the tests they first take a look at your resume including degrees and grade averages.