You’re fired, IMC style
Firing people is never easy. Especially when you still want to feel good about yourself, and keep the other traders happy and confident. Scores of books are written on the fine art of laying people off.
Trading firm IMC doesn’t need any advice for firing people. They’ve found a perfect way to get rid of traders. Last year a few dozen traders and support staff were told to leave by surprise.
They have been fine tuning their approach to reach maximum effect. On the exciting day the bonuses were to be announced, two traders received a completely different message. “Your bonus over 2009 is… hey, guess what – you’re fired!”. Sounds too sadistic to be true. Some kind of urban legend. Strange enough, it appears to be completely true. The traders weren’t trainees, but experienced traders with a credible track record. This really seems to be the way IMC is treating their employees. Curious to know how management communicates this to their traders.
What is it with Dutch firms and their apparent contempt for their employees? VDM was pretty similar to IMC by the sounds of it!
don't worry, it's not just Dutch firms. US/UK/Aussie firms are not known for their friendliness towards employees as well.
I cant speak for everyone but in the US we actually do look after our employees…. we dont hire 100 juniors to fire 80 (or more!) of them after 12 -18 months. in fact we have an 80% retention rate. so how many euro or aussie firms can claim the same?
I'm sorry, bit did the US firms not invent the 'hire & fire' mentality? Of course there are firms (US / Dutch) that don't do this. Your firm (US), my firm (Dutch) don't do this, but a lot of them do (look at Susquehanna, one of the worst).
It's true, IMC fired those guys on the day the bonusses were announced. We didn't hear anything afterwards from management. It's sick.
They did the same at All Options recently as well as part of the restructuring. They Got rid of 40-50 people last November.
with all due respect, why do you say susquehanna is one of the worst?
Just to clarify – All Options didn't fire any traders.
is bonus discretionary with imc? the fired employ did get their bonus before quit imc? or just go out and no bonus?
What do you think? You get fired when you do not perform or when the company is not doing well. Would you give bonusses then ?
perhaps as a 'golden hand-shake'?!
nope no bonus and they where asked to sign a non-compete clause as well
thats ridiculous, fired with no bonus oh and you cannot go and earn a living elsewhere on top, did anybody accept those terms?? How long was the non compete for? Think I would happily fight them in court over the non compete, no judge would possibly rule in their favour given that they're firing u!
You obviously haven't checked with a solicitor. Every contract has at least a 6 month non compete. We've all signed it. And they can fire you and then hold you to it. This is contract law. If you choose to fight it the judge might give you the pay for those months. But you have to eat the legal fees until you can prevail. This is how the game works.
Better to be an owner than an employee. The deck is stacked.
never had the need to consult a solicitor but is a 6 month non compete standard in Holland??
These contracts often cannot be enforced. At least not in London. 3 month gardening leave is the usual compromise. I believe NL has stricter enforcement.
@8.19. Rubbish, the retention rate is typically 80% at Susquehanna.
Firing traders on bonus day is unbelievable.
Although I heard IMC management will be dumped by their girlfriends on valentine's day..
They should just ignore the non compete clause like the ex Optiver traders do and move to another country under a new name.
@11.02AM
Thanks for clearing that up for us Brant
11:31 Can you elaborate. That is a very serious comment.. ?
nc clause at IMC was 12 months, used as change. will cost them though if you fire people that work for you for more then 12 years.
10:00
'dumped by their boyfriends' you mean?!
This is so weird, does IMC want their laid-off employees to hate them? Why do they do that? At least a "sorry"
arrogant dutch management, same as VDM and look where that company ended up!
I was already wondering why are frusty Tibra friend was not in this thread anymore. But he's back!
What is "frusty"?
FTD, lol.
Optiver does the same thing. Just before bonus day they like to axe people.
FTD all day!
Yeah, if I could I would.
Yeah, but you can't 🙂 Although you are trying.
the two guys where HK traders, one of them was a dutch employee though
You can better apply at tibra, I heard they have bonus twice a year
Why doesn't somebody fire FD?
firing the Financieel Dagblad?!
What does FTD mean?
FTD = Faster Than Dutch: Oxford English Dictionary defines it as 'in finance, the attempt to beat the Dutch at their own game. However given relativistic theories it is actually unachievable. More commonly used as a term of indignation by Australians every time they beaten in financial transactions by Dutch companies.' I swear, that's what it says in the dictionary. Must be true.
Haha, just remembered where I say FTD for the first time. And it wasn't what Trader Bob said. Thanks anyway Bob.
@Trader Bob, in my dictionary it says something different. It says "It ain't much, if it ain't Dutch".
I have the Australian edition.
@ 4:34 pm I'm sure he'll be flattered but no, Frans Drion
Haha does Frans read the Financieel Dagblad?
Ralph stop saying to fire him
Fucking Euronext-system with its fucking delay!!
lol @ 9:14 am does Frans know what Financieel Dagblad is?
Frans wouldnt know a "Financieel Dagblad" if there was one stuck up his ass.
DELAY AGAIN
DELAY (AGAIN)
DELAY!
Because Frans doesn't know his ass from his elbow.
B Van Haaren
what delay?
@4.15PM
Its very ironic that Birgitte van Haaren is posting messages here as she sent out a global mail to all employees asking not to post on or browse to the amsterdamtrader blog. Talk about pot calling the kettle black.
K Reynolds
wow!
http://www.youtube.com/alloptionstv
She's a director at All Options right? You know they only have double standards. As long as she gets rid of Frans we can be happy. Ps any jobs at Scrocca?
Everyone at All Options
who were the guys imc fired?
This is old news right? Unless they have done the same in 2010 as in 2009?
Not old news, IMC fires a couple of traders every year to keep the remaining traders awake. Part of their policy.
>Not old news, IMC fires a couple of traders
>every year to keep the remaining traders awake
>Part of their policy.
Until…
LOL @ 5.31pm
I hate it when 'everyone at all options' post messages on this blog.
FTD = First To Default or
FTD = Failure To Deliver
can't figure out how this fits the comments here though…
If you knew any of the Aussie founding Tibra members youd know very well that FTD = Fuck The Dutch!
Assuming all bonuses are paid as discretionary, do you think that firms break up P&L into alpha and beta components? By that I mean the beta portion of P&L is due to things like IT infrastructure (particularly speed) and size of the balance sheet, without which you would not be able to make the same cash, and the alpha portion being what you the trader with your own initiative/skill/whatever actually contributed to your P&L? Suggests that the bonus pool at smaller shops should actually be a higher % of revenue?
Another related question – what is market rate for calculating bonus pool? 40% of pretax profit, or as a function of revenue?
Very good assesment. Infact the bonuses in a lot of companies mentioned on this site do not have any relation to your P&L. Because to them all the money you make is becuase of their IT and cash balance.
http://www.youtube.com/alloptionstv
i guess we now know where some of the all options money went to.
that all options video is one of the funniest things i have ever seen – what a dick!
He thinks he's the coolest guy ever with his shirt unbottoned.
it's called fashion.
doe mij die trainee maar. haahah die is te druk om even wat te zeggen. die zal er onderhand wel uitgebonjourd zijn.
the trainee yes…hes probably concentrating hard working a 1 lot hahahahaha
if its all options then it definitely is a one lot
the trader looks clueless – a great advert not to work at that clown company
this all options guy is funny
http://files.iclippy.com/134451/12562221455326.jpg
he needs just slightly stronger glasses or a better desk setup.
I guess going through a red light is an example of AO's willingness to break the rules.
and uh, how is this an ad? there not a single mention of what this guy is actually doing at the office…
well done guys!
that trainee was probably busy trying to figure out where he lost all his whole year pnl that morning.
put he's wearing a rolex so he must be a player??!! Or is it fake ?? Probably fake
@5:41am: (so you're posting from asia then?)
How does AO break rules?
ha – Optiver breaks the rules!
all of you dutch are making a mess of it – FTD!
Fuck The Dingo's you mean!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingo
The name "dingo" mostly refers to populations occuring in AUSTRALIA…
side question…whats the lowest atm vol anybody on here has ever seen in an equity option?
Vol.11 ATM in AAB (first month)
August 2001
Whats Volkswagen ATM vol now ?
Its trading at 63.51…..is this fucking true ? Is it the same volkswagen we had in 2008..any corporate action ????
@ 2.59
Vol 5 or 6 in the AEX front month index atm around the same time if I remember correctly.
@ 4.08 PM, I remember being long gamma at the time and not earning back my theta. Those were the days. NOT.
5 year vol AEX was something like 11 or so in 1997 if I remember correctly (i'm getting old)
indices are one thing but single stocks on less than 10 are a bit crazy imo, especially after last couple of years…nice with that Aug 01 vol, just a few weeks before 9/11
g
Can someone tell me what the difference is in working for a real prop house like Tibra or Optiver and working in the dealing room of a bank like ABN or ING (be it prop trading or trading for clients) in terms of salary, bonusses, hours, working conditions, career opportunities, etc.?
then the english market makers bought all the vol off the ducth locals and we said good bye to paul van dm and stanley meijers, target traders (and the rest). Those english market makers killed us. saratoga if i remember correctly.
tibra and optiver arent prop houses – they are just market makers. prop houses like mako, liquid, drw take big posistions as well as market making (ie proprietary risk)
goldman also trades prop. none of the other banks take prinicpal risk but only have flow desks, taking the other side of sales business. so the only prop desks at a bank are now really at goldman
@11.14pm
The English said FTD!! And took all your money
Strange,
After weak figures Wal-Mart and bad jobless the fdax moved to around 5645 and then started to climb and make new highs.
Unbelievable.
The English said: lets Fuck some Dingo's… or better, lets get Fucked by some Dingo's.
@ 4.08
AEX is not equity,
RD 9.
Schering 1… but that was on the Bayer takeover
Top of yesterday in FDAX
5710/5711.5
i have seen front months get down to 8 vol in some stocks.
Which stocks have had 8 vol
unless, this 8 vola is consequence of a corporate action, 8 vola is totally wrong.
yeah i agree anything sub 10 in a single stock is just wrong, always possibility of a discreet event in a single stock which just cannot happen in an index, pretty easy to pay for theta when you own sub 10 vol!
101 comments, now we need a new article.
102 now… oh no, 103! 😉
in 04, or 05 index vol was crushed to what… 14, 15 wasn't it?
fdax, back to the low of Friday. The start of the stupid move upwards
IMC sucks. It is a horror company!
@12:33 pm. Again thanks for the insightfull comment. Can you elaborate?
@12:33pm. I agree. Were you just fired or what?
And well done on posting something a month after the last comment.
Try three months.
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