The seven dwarfs
104 comments / January 1, 2010
Reading yesterday’s news on the remains of Van der Moolen in the Financieele Dagblad. Turns out at least seven spin-off’s have been created from the wrecked company. One may wonder how many of the seven dwarfs will survive in 2010. Fairy tales usually have a happy ending, so maybe we could say “and they lived happily ever after”..Caerus
Formed by the ten traders who left the firm before the the company asked for credit protection and went bankrupt. You’ll need to be pretty self-confident and have deep pockets to leave a trading house to start your own in the middle of the year. Newspaper is very enthusiast on their license of primary market maker – but this is only the license for AEX index options as far as I know.
Location: Beursplein 5
Alphabay
Don’t wish to look back at the past. Makes sense because this is the company is founded by the former managers of Van der Moolen. The newspaper lost track of the amount of traders working for Alphabay. First reporting 13 traders, later suggesting a total headcount of 15 of which 8 traders. Sounds like a serious overhead problem. Informal sources indicate this number of 8 traders is exaggerated.
Location: Singel
Location: Singel
EXT
Stands for Europe X Trading, comparable with it’s mother Asia X Trading. Complicated story of traders based in Hong Kong, Geneva and Amsterdam. Sounds difficult to make this work as a small start up venture, but the traders behind this venture have good reputation.
Location: Beursplein 5
Aespen
Nothing new here. Well-known and reliable broker like it has always been in the past. Same brokers, same company name. Just a change in ownership. The chairman of Van der Moolen during it’s last days (Peter Zwart) is today some kind of non-executive board member at Aespen.
Location: unknown
Location: unknown
CIT
The German / Swiss operation of Van der Moolen continues as CIT, which stands for Cologne Independent Traders. Large operation with a lot of traders (17, according to the press), which makes it by far the biggest spin-off. They published their software source code on their website.
Location: Cologne, Germany
WEBB Traders
A little odd company, as the owners didn’t suffer from the fall of VDM. They were fired by Richard den Drijver before the company went down. According to the newspaper both managers won a court case against VDM, and with the financial compensation they financed their start-up. Based in the well known former Optiver building next to central station. The only company with a serious website so far. Something with bridges.
Location: former Optiver building
Location: former Optiver building
London
The former VDM traders in London also must have started something. But that’s all the newspaper can tell about it.
(Newspaper story here, in Dutch)
EXT is located on Beursplein 5
Caerus needed just MM licence in options, as the guys behind it are good index traders – best of luck gentleman
Has anyone got the original newspaper article online?
Beursplein 5? So Allard is their landlord? Good luck!
I find it pathetic to always read the same old stories, criticising All options and laughing about VDM. There's never anything new on his blog, always the same stuff. You guys, the big swinging d… of the Dutch market place, you the kings of dividend and volatility, isn't there more interesting stuff to write about??? Let's face it, you, reading this message, was SO happy to see VDM collapsing, finds it SO funny to shit on others face while you feel big because you made 2000 Euros today! Come on, you can do better than that, stop being a gossip Queen and bring on some more interesting subjects. I've left the "Amsterdam Financial Market" a year ago and still see NO CHANGE AT ALL!!! The same old bullets gossiping about the very same other old bullets. To me, all this is a bunch of unprofitable guys who have nothing left besides shitting on other nonprofitable guys. Ciao
Hear! hear !
tell us what you really think…….
@10:14
Great to see you coming back! We miss you too!
in future:
never sign off a message with "ciao". You immediately change from being a moaner to a moaning faggot!
Alphabay have a website too! http://www.alphabay.nl/ The site clearly shows how useless they are!
I cant imagine Alphabay making much money, they have too many managers, directors and support staff for such a small company.
@11:18 Hahahaha true!
Alphabay sounds like VDM mk 2! how long will it take them to burn through the 2.5 million credit they received from VDM positions??
Alphabay doesn't need traders. Everything is automated. Including IT and development. Playing cards all day with the mid-office.
@ 10:14 PM cursing the BSD's
Dont be so "cold"
Welcome back Indeed
-"CHIAO"
I think by the end of the 2010 there will only be a few of the companies above still alive. Alphabay, London, Webb etc will all fail and die due to the people running them.
Alphabay has Egg and the useless Risk Managers all of whom were key in VDM's downfall.
The London traders were useless and I cant see how a new company will change that.
Webb has the guy who ruined OnlineTrader running it and some of the useless ex VDM traders.
EXT & Caerus will struggle to keep up too if previous experience is anything to go by.
He guys, which are the largest 5 MM in the US?
Its really hard to tell. If you look at ISE's website you will see that all major I-banks are PMM's in the option market.
http://www.ise.com/WebForm/options_membership_iseMembers.aspx?categoryId=193&header0=true&menu6=true&link1=true&list=none
Banks are present in the pits as well.
Don't have stats but private non I-banks that come to mind are
Timberhill (Electronic everywhere), Citadel, SIG, CTC, Wolverine, DRW.
@10:41
OnlineTrader never existed (no clients), so was impossible to ruin.
The downfall of VDM wasn't caused by trading losses – so, don't blame the risk managers.
@12:17 thx.
Ben opzoek om eens in kaart te brengen wat omzetten, aantal transacties, winst, aantal medewerkers etc zijn. Iemand tips waar ik kan beginnen te zoeken?
Hi,
where does the term "Bin" stand for at the provided ise.com link?
@ 10.41 thought the London guys hammered it in 2008 or was someone telling me lies?
mako, liquid and winchmore had it off
rumour has it that all options will be closing beursplein 5 in a crazy effort to cut costs. having lost 20 plus million last year and no signs of improvement, their overheads are scary. looks like ralph and ron sold "allard the ego" a dog (saen)!!!! well done guys!
Does someone have a link to the original article – i didn't work on dec 31.. thanks
je zal de preciese getallen niet direct krijgen, maar timber, citadel en wolverine hebben het goed voor elkaar.
anyone having idea about Aussies this year..how they performed in Europe ?
Brett Emerton performed well in the Premier league in my opinion.
These Aussies did incredibly well. However Australia has a september to september fiscal year. Hence it may be very skewed to the earnigs of Sep – Nov 2008 which was an incredible time to be an Options Trader.
http://www.theage.com.au/business/lightningfast-buck-20091105-i0bw.html
Europe had a great 2009 on the Eurostoxx because some of the big market makers who were on a vacation
It is quite suspicious that Tibra have done so well from an alleged 'standing start'…how have market makers done in 2009? Second half of the yr with vol so low must have been tough to make decent money
Out of interest what do people think the minimum requirements are for successfully setting up?
1 million/2 million capital/VDMs discounted positions?
RTS/Orc/Optivers code?
4-5 traders with/without CMMs/PMMs?
Is it true that All Options lost 30mm in 2009….
Yes, it's true. It's also true that Allard has lost 30mm and more on one day for multiple times in the past. So he does not look at 30mm the same as you would. What count is that he's doing things properly. It's not about the p&l
30 mm on one day….where ?
The only ones to say it is not about the p&l are the losers.
ohh really..thanks for knowledge..btw How much are up ?
Seems Matthew Hoyle didnt pay his bille in Hong Kong (as in The Hague): http://www.spitsnieuws.nl/archives/buitenland/2010/01/opnieuw_zuuraanval_hongkong.html
Jan 9, 10:43
-30mm several times?! Hard to believe.
What I do know is that yesterday All had to sell more than a mm Unilever-stocks because the software/marketmaker fucked up.
Didn't lose money though.
thats great
so all options are ranked amongst the worst trading groups in europe for 2009
and 2008
all option have operation in 3 tax heaven.a wisper said that they do dividend stripping. What is exactly "dividend stripping"?
It is something that mainly Optiver does
Optiver or VDM ?
and 2010
Assume all options go into bankruptcy. Fortis is their clearer? If they do go belly up, what kind of hit do Fortis take?
If they are able to wear 30m one day hits, they are not running small positions. The Fortis haircut model does not take into account any liquidity provisions, only VAR style calcs that shock various market input (spot/vol/DV01 etc). Liquidity is not one of those factors
anyone know how allard jackob can lose 30 ml in one day with this market? it is with index future big directionnal bet? or future index spread? or just shorting ING?
They're not clearing with Fortis in Europe, only in Asia, otherwise it's far too risky for Fortis….
ha-ha – same old crap on this blog…
ja ja…
Than tell us something new!
Out of interest what do people think the minimum requirements are for successfully setting up?
1 million/2 million capital/VDMs discounted positions?
RTS/Orc/Optivers code?
4-5 traders with/without CMMs/PMMs?
seems like nobody knows anything…. amateurs
1 millions and sometime 500.000 euro for kbc and fortis clearing. for prime broker 5 ml is the minimum. barclay or deutche bank prime 100 ml minimum so forget it. stock lending at fortis is quite bad but the haircut is really good.
scocca buy a small firm in brussel . do you know more about that?
Oud Nieuws.
Option Trading Company (OTC). Genoteerd bedrijf. Heeft goeie jaren gehad. Maar dan stappen de handelaren op en zakt de koers in.
Henry, you will need that to start a trading company. 500,000 will not even buy you enough for one desk.
it is an expensive desk for 500.000 euro
500,000 a desk?? sounds like you're getting shafted guy if thats what they are telling you!
haha wat een amateurs hier zeg …. pff!
om 12 minuten voor één 's nachts achter je computer zitten om deze site te bezoeken – dan ben je pas een amateur, amateur!
zeker geen trading-carriere meer?! Koos-werkeloos…
flow trader is a uncredibly sucessfull company. they claim trading etf. Indeed they are market maker in a lot of them.have you any idea of their real activity?. It is impossible to win so much money with etf with so narrow spread.
Flow trading is doing a lot more then just ETF's. They trade all kinds of derivatives and bonds as well.
I heard that most of the profits is from their futures trading. Can someone confirm this?
hey i live in oz and think you are all amateurs too!
at my dutch company I learnt a new word which applies to you guys
PRUTSERS
get a life (and try and make some money)
hahaha
@5.56
use your next bonus to buy a dictionary
its……….uncredible!!!
to mister "prusters" : you seem so proud to be employee at a big option firm and to receive your bonus. ahahah you are just monkey for your boss and they give you peanut("bonus" ) to satisfy you. you are just a slave and you dare insult people. stay in your box in waiting your peanut
is somebody know what flow trader does with future: future vs basket arbitrage ; index arbitrage( aex vs dax); index rebalancing arbitrage , dividend arbitrage??
A company is like monkeys climbing a tree, the monkeys at the top look down and see smiling faces, but the monkeys at the bottom look up and see arse holes.
aex vs dax is not arbitrage – perhaps a strategy between two highly correlated indicies, but no arbitrage. And can somebody pls tell me what prutsers/prusters means pls? Lastly, agreed that you cannot start your own firm for 500k – better to piss it up against a wall. Amateurish, but at least you are trying to have a go….
Prutser = incompetent f*ck
the fact that so many trading companies exist in Holland and a one of a kind blog exists in amsterdam is testimony to how good business and traders are there is amsterdam.
Lets stop bickering. Never heard of Oz, UK, US, France traders talking crap about their companies. Why do we have to call each other amateurs. We are a good trading community. Lets behave that way. Leave all the gossip for the bad traders that were fired and cannot compete with us. We individually pay more tax than companies all over the world.
Lets stop this fighting and giving unfair add revenue and coverage to VDM, matthew hoyle, tibra and all options. We should be proud of other dutch trading companies doing well, not quareling.
by the way. Jack the owner of this blog/website.
DO you have the copyright to the picture of evan mcgregor from rouge trader. I am not sure if u can use it for commercial use.
Don't take the quareling too serious, it isn't intended that way. But I see your point.
i am not agreed with you i know for sure that it is possibl to open an account with fortis or kbc clearing with between 500k and 1 m
Peanut traders of the world unite! Strike down the monkey arses!
@5:13
I can confirm this. However, you'll need some additional cash for running the company apart from the deposit at the clearing.
peanut traders hahahahahahahahahahahahah
the peanut trader win more than you for sure!!!
Just because you have a higher standard deviation does not mean that the expectation is higher.
I am a recent graduate trying to apply to these small companies. Can the owners of these seven dwarfs please put up their names so that I can apply to you.
I graduated from Cambridge with honors in computer science and do not want to join the UK banks because of the taxes.
I would try Scrocca/OTC then.
Good company, with a way longer track record.
I would try All Options as they are a long established company going places.
I would try Alphabay, as they don't have any traders and wll hire anyone
If you were any good you would be trying to get into google with the rest of the nerds.
Tech companies actually does not pay as much as trading companies do. They have a good base salary and thats about it. I have heard of trading bonuses in amsterdam MM firms and they are much higher unaffected by the financial meltdown.
I would try another industry. This one is full of whiners and egos. Better work as a teacher or fire fighter.
You wont care about whining and egos when you are picking up big bonuses at All Options.
All Options won't be paying out ANY bonus at all over 2009..
Dear Cambridge bro,
If you call them dwarfs, probably they will never give you their names.
Secondly, you really should be more active, google them, the company names, the addresses, the website, call them, e-mail them. There are a lot of graduates and lay-offs in the market who are looking for jobs, you shouldn't wait for being contacted.
Well, no harm feeling, quite honest suggestions.
If anyone is still looking for work, and dont mind working for a bunch of useless idiots, then alphabay are recruiting! http://www.alphabay.nl/
you want to know how AO lost money earlier +30mm , check under the name goedgedaanoptions , en AKZO nobel in 1998
its 12 years old..tell something new..
Yes this is all old shit. Please lets talk about the more recent losses such as Volkswagen and Hypo Real Estate.
what about the altana trade ? it was never published in the papers. what happened there ?
Altana's link was posted by someone on this blog..
In dutch:
http://www.fd.nl/artikel/9426933/schoonheid-short-squeeze
started with luck ,genius finish, 200milion profit, i guess there is nothing left of it anymore after bonuses in 2007
VW, HYPO, saAN , and fuck ups.
Thank you 9:08 and 10:52
I just wanted to know the reason behind the fabulous Christmas party website.
Does anyone know the bonus deals at those newly founded companies including the important difference between percentage of own P&L and discretion?
all companies in holland have a discretionary bonus no one gets % of P&L. everyone splits the bonus pool evenly AFTER dividends are paid out.
Other companies first pay out bonuses then pay dividends on remaining profits
The FD missed the 8th dwarf of the 'directors' of the Paris office with the funny name http://dejavutrading.com/
@9:50
Well, that's wrong. You don't know what you're talking about really. Stop trying to mislead people looking for jobs in the Dutch sector.
You must be a Tibra employee!
So let’s see:
Caerus: intensive care unit, rescued by WEBB. They won’t make it.
Alphabay: dead.
EXT: dead? Some of their traders have moved on to the Asian parent AXT.
Aespen: dead.
CIT: ? Never heard of them.
WEBB Traders: on life support. Merged with Caerus.
London: ?
Not a good score. Not that we expected any differently.
‘Caerus: intensive care unit, rescued by WEBB. They won’t make it.’
how do you mean ICU and they won’t make it?
‘Alphabay: dead’
with eggbert, ric and brothers, it didn’t even get a fair chance did it?
‘Aespen: dead’
Deadbeat Blood Sucking Brokers
CIT: ? Never heard of them.
Well try listening hard then
‘WEBB Traders: on life support. Merged with Caerus.’
how do you mean life support?
‘London: ?
Not a good score. Not that we expected any differently.’
any more specifics, companies?