Searching a job as market maker
Recently several comments and e-mails by fresh university graduates requested for more information on getting a job as a derivative trader in Amsterdam. As the visitors, Google and this site are close friends it would make sense to write a tiny how-to and where-to get a job in Amsterdam trading firms.
Basically there are seven market makers where university graduates could apply. There are definitely more firms around, but most of them are small operations, or you have to bring your own money or they are only recruiting experienced traders. Some new firms are expected as the broken pieces of Van Der Moolen are probably trying to start something new. The firms without an office in Amsterdam aren’t taken into account at all, but they generally aren’t interesting to apply for a job anyway.
As famous trader Frank Zappa already stated, we’re only in it for the money. It’s hard to say where to find the best bonus deals. At some firms junior traders won’t receive much, and elsewhere the fixed salaries are higher. After the crash of VDM there’s no market maker around giving insight in the trader compensation. That’s a pity.
I’ll just make list of the firms. Very subjective, but one has got to start somewhere.
Optiver
The largest Dutch market maker with a reputation for having the best software and employing the most nerds from all over the world. Their recruitment procedure is though and most applicants fail for the math test. Minor problem is their reputation for manipulating markets and fraud. Legal battles against Tibra and US trade authorities.
Founded : 1986
Location : WTC
International : Yes
IMC
The second market maker is IMC, or the International Marketmaker Combination. In past years the company didn’t know where to spend it’s money and expanded into websites, newspapers and even a bank. Amsterdam office reportedly isn’t doing very well after the departure of dozens of traders. The US operations in the Sears tower in Chicago is dwarfing the Amsterdam office.
Founded : 1989
Location : WTC
International : Yes
All Options
Allard Jakobs started All Options after his earlier company Goed Gedaan Options failed in 1998 on a huge failed arbitrage spread. Was subsequently banned form Euronext for years, but returned in 2005. Made the jackpot with the Altana superdividend trade, bought rival Saen Options early 2009. All Options deserve credits for organizing the yearly soccer tournament. Company appears to be struggling with internal clan warfare and too many managers.
Founded: 1998
Location : Centre (Beursplein 5)
International : limited
Tibra
Traders from Optiver Australia resigned and started their own firm, allegedly taking the source code of Optiver’s trading software with them. Under fire of Optiver’s lawyers ever since in a legal battle. The Australians decided to challenge Optiver on their home market in Amsterdam.
Founded : 2006
Location : Centre (Singel)
International : Australia
Scrocca
Small firm recently evolved into a serious market maker, although still mainly seen as an underdog. Despite the name, it’s an original Dutch firm. Location is even more boring than WTC.
Founded: 1997
Location : Far west (Sloterdijk)
International : no
Flow Traders
Started by former Optiver traders. Not really a market maker but focussing on arbitrage, and according to some press reports quite successful in trading ETF’s. Or just succesful in public relations, that’s another possibility.
Founded : 2004
Location : East
International : Limited
323 Trading
Small market maker which seems to be old-skool kind of operation. Very limited trading, with a very few traders. By far the smallest company on the list, and more like other small firms.
Founded : 2003
Location : Centre (Nwz Voorburgwal)
International : No
Eclipse options still not in the Netherlands?
at 20 for the number of people working at 323.
My market for the number of people working for 323 is 13 bid at 18. (Including cleaning, part timers and overhead)
Leopark is in the AEX a much bigger player than Scrocca and 323 together.
All options sucks dick; you should ask Allard about the Akzo Nobel trade…ROFLOL
Dude, that was way long ago!
1998… dispersion trading between Akzo and Arnemse… ending of Goed Gedaan, but the beginning of All Options.
Word is IMC is actually doing much better since beginning of the year, when they let go of a bunch of traders.
Which firm has the highest starting salary?
Ok, how about:
All options sucks dick; you should ask Allard about the Hypo Real Estate trade…ROFLOL
@Which firm has the highest starting salary?
Goldman
how much was lost on the Azko trade?How was it lost?
Same questions about the Hypo real estate trade
Optiver the best software?,
They may be fast due to the fact that Euronext allows them to be PMM and CMM in some option class(AEX). That should be stopped.
@10:29, really why should that be stopped? It's possible for everyone, you included..
@10:28, the spread Akzo – Dortsche made sense but was a little out of proportion. Search back the newspapers in 1998 for the figures..
and the Hypo Real estate-trade??
don't just plamp some frases, just give a little bit more detail
details:
http://www.volkskrant.nl/archief_gratis/article798967.ece/Ongelukje
Nice post. I just add some comments from my experience. FLow trader is smaller compared to IMC and Optiver. And for the graduate seeking for junior trader position, dutch speaking is a must, so I have a feeling it is not very international.
whats HRX(hypo real..) trade ? never heard about it..more details pls..
Don't forget to mention that Allard sued ING over the Akzo/Arnhemse. Surprisingly he won and could start All Options with the money awarded by the court. (or so I have heard….)
Allard Jakobs has got a healthy ambition, but misses a sense of proportions..
They thought that another Altana (short squeeze) would happened during the JC flowers offer.
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS74125+24-Jun-2008+PRN20080624
If a position has a problem just do more size. If you blow up a clearing broker then just sue them for damages.
Allard is a pathetic human being, just look at his face, and with his ethics (lack of it) probably he will end up in jail or sued by his own workers. Its hard to feel motivated when the owner of your company doesnt have any charisma. Anyway, time will through Alloptions into bankruptcy sooner or later!!! Champagne is ready!!!
Allard and Dimi, what a fucking nice couple, ship is ready to sink…
Please proceed your profound language at http://www.alloptionstrader.com.
If you don't like your job or your boss, quit the job. Don't whine about it.
let the man speak; criticising his company through this website is allowed.
That you are so happy at All 'stick a knife in my back'Options is your opinion.
So let everybody have his/her opinion..
vega to the max bitch
I do not work for Allard and will never do so. Reading the frustrations of traders (I presume) at Alloptions is quite amusing but the suck my piemel level is rather pathetic.
what is suck my piemel?
it means: suck my dick (eddy)!
like in the hilarious scene from Eddy Murphy's RAW
hehhe fuck you eddy, suck my dick now:)
anyways, which MM are better then All Options since everybody is getting a blowjob there
blowjobs @ 14.30. No, that was y'day.
who sucked your piemel…was it allard, rogier or martijn?
seems like words such as "Allard","All Options" are horrible words in Holland..just after any post on this blog(doesnt matter it belongs to AJ/AO or not), babies start crying !
yeah, don't be such a crybaby! (Radiohead in Southpark)
Hi, maybe it would also be a good idea to make an overview of the cash equities trading companies ?! As far as I know it is also a very popular kind of business in Ams.
what about liquid capital? not in amsterdam but pretty big worldwide right?
As of last week, All Options has an unbeatable new trading strategy. It goes by the code name "kantonrechtersformule" and it is the true panacea to all the problems that the company has been facing, including structural mismanagement and total lack of long-term planning. The #1 global liquidity provider is very liquid indeed right now, with a very special kind of liquidity. Head hunters, heads up!
You do not display desirable behavior. All Options only wants employees who agree with Allard.
You're absolutely right on that. The company hires "the most intelligent people around", but then expects a bunch of yes-sayers with no brains of their own. Constructive criticism is labeled "negative attitude" and the only acceptable version of reality is the one disseminated by the Ministry of Propaganda – erhm, internal marketing department.
A trading company with an internal marketing department? Yes sir, and an emperor with wonderful brand new clothes too. Best place to work. Core value: together. Everything is just great and world domination is planned for next quarter.
but there is one problem. they dont have any quality traders. the new vdm – i give them 18 months
16:16:16
Just 3 minutes ago. Did you see it?
666? The sign of Allard?
such a bo-ring day…
Océ traders will pay for the first beer, especially if they weren't the FOTM-calls long.
fire(d) sale at all options – they plan launching a new movie. hopefully it doesn't have the elements 2012, or the day after tomorrow
dear guys, I have a question. A few months ago, I applied to optiver, passed the math test with quite nice score, then I was interviewed. Then I was told that I wasn't offered a job because my motivation wasn't right. What does that mean? Any advice is welcome since I want to avoid "not right" motivation next time.
Cheers!
"Not right" is code for they didnt like you for some reason. You will never know why so don't kill yourself over it.
before any interview with optiver you have to watch the following + be dutch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7upG01-XWbY&feature=related
never tell a market maker you are in there for the money! Say you want to help the world by providing liquidity and sharing the wealth. If you tell them you want to become a vital part of the economic system and help it function properly, you are bound to get noticed!
dont say that u want to be a trader..tell them that u want to be a successful "market maker"..Thats what they wanna hear..which is answered by very few candidates..
if you want to know which company is successful as a market maker, look at the staff turnover (or lack of it). unfortunately, what we do is all about making money. if people leave or sacked its because of money. so:
imc – high staff turnover – losing lots of cash
saen – sold to all options as only option to survive
all options – cash rich because of altana, but havent made money in 2 years. run by two fat idiots: aj and rvp.
optiver – cash rich, making money, but not lots.
flow traders – smartest guys in the room. low overheads and making lots of money.
tibra – growing and making money, but dont take any risk at all so will only ever make small amounts of money.
all the rest – small and make small returns
now you have a different outlook on the dutch market makers
agree! maybe not for all the market makers but optiver for sure, they don't like people whose motivation is making money, definitely not the candidate him/herself! Even although one of the most interesting topics there is the bonus. Actually most of the employers, doesn't matter which industry, would not like someone applies only for money…
Don't think it's a problem to say you want to be a good trader as they call themselves proprietary trading firm in a brochure.
The problem is that these companies dont describe themselves correctly..They are primarily market making firms..and dont take big speculative positions(like prop trading desks of I-Banks & AO(as we saw in he past)do) & dont prefer people who want to trade like this..They have few desks where they bet on volatility correlations..but those desks are managed by big guys(partners etc.)
Also, in the job ads, if u see..the job title is always "Derivatives Trader" but the title on actual job contract is "Market Maker"..Actually, the two terms are different..may be my view is subjective..
all options, cash rich? very funny. i want to hear more about this kantonrechtersformule. does that mean they're sacking people?
How much has imc lost this year?
@November 17, 2009 7:33 PM:
Isn't it obvious? By the dozens (plural). Until last week it was non-traders, this week they started with the traders. And they're not done yet. The way things are going, there will soon be a little firm on Rokin with grandiose plans for its past.
@ anonymous, 17 november, 2:18
If you want to gamble, go to the casino. Speculation is not what a good trading firm does, the keyword is RISK (like stated in the Quote-article about Optiver).
So it's a purge at All Options? Gotta love those guys!
Can anyone put some P&L figures or at least some 'mock'-scale comments for the year '09 to the overview of the post @ 7.24? Might be interesting.
Hey guys here are the official figures for a junior role in several MM operations:
-Optiver: 30k base + 25k min bonus if you pass the cut
-tibra: approx 60k + good bonus if you succeed
-323: 35k base +bonus
IMC: no official but i'd say between Tibra and Optiver…around 50k + bonus
-Liquid: 35k£ + bonus (london office)
For the rest, please feel free to add details on firms like Scrocca, Flowtraders, AllOptions…without too much BS please!
Optiver: 100k (~93k USD)+ bonus in australia
AllOptions – juniors 25k base with target bonus of 10-15k. Dont spend it all at once!
That's a lie – All Options is 35k base + bonus to 25k. There's a lot of BS on these comments. Don't trust waht you read on this blog – ask the company directly. Too many idiots on this blog.
Also my advice in getting a job is be yourself -MM are companies, they want to see ambitious people. Don't try to present an image you think they want to see. Of course money making is an acceptable reason. Just show them you have the skills and are worth for them to give you a chance to make that money!
If you get turned down – the reason could be anything. The same for any job. Just call it a day and go for the next… no loss.
Trader Bob you talk bullshit. Okay 35k base (bruto), 25k (netto) but 1st year bonuses (and im talking target bonuses from this years mid year reviews for junior traders is only around 15k). Just ask any trader in salary grade 1 or 2 that is there right now. Although to estimate this years is pretty easy – zero.
@ 10:42
From an external perspective, you seem to be the same person who made the earlier comment. Looks like you're willing to tell the truth when someone contradicts you.
So I just ask people reading this to use their intelligence in trusting someone who obviously has a grudge against All Options.
At All Options taders get a target bonus based on a predicted profit. If realised company profit is 2 times predicted profit (in theory) you get 2*(target bonus)
Then they can substract from that for what they call 'undesirable behavior'.
Undesirable behavior can be caused by numerous things like:
* not promoting that All Options is the best in bussiness
* constructive critisism (this is not a joke!!!)
* not aknowledging that AJ is God and the MT is untouchable
But this all doesn't matter because for 2009 everybody will receive exactly 0% of their target bonus.
As an all-optioner I can say this is lies too…
Bonus for us trainees is based on performance, potential, communication, team based development, and also has a discretionary factor – so if you don't get high trading results (in today's market that's tough) but you display all the skills and abilities then you still get a bonus.
That's good. Real focus on development here. That's why I chose them.
but your company doesnt make money! unfortunatey, i know communication, team based development is all nice and a good motivator, BUT, trading (whether it be market making or prop) is all about making money. All Options doesnt, and it run by two fat fools – Allard and Ralph van Put!
I work at All Options, am I dont expect that I will be able to buy a Porsche this year!
Then ask Ralph if you can borrow one of his Porsches for a weekend!
"if you don't get high trading results"
I'm so glad you're working at AllOptions and not my company. Thank you Allard for taking all the losers!
Someone said that bad publicity still is publicity…at least All Options is getting a lot of publicity!
Too bad there's no options market on All Options s stock, it would know be interesting to watch…
With insiders banned from trading, we'll probably get a pretty steep slope…
I heard there is a group of ex All Options guys meeting up with ex VDM and IMC guys to form a new company? Any truth in these rumours?
E.T. is what they should call their new company… Expired Traders 😉
@ 10:37,
I don't believe that. Maybe some new start ups from VDM are recruiting former IMC / AO traders, but they are defintely not building a new company together.
There are 4 start ups from former VDM traders.
Alphabay…
the 14 traders who left VDM earlier…
…??
….??
Alphabay
the 8 market makers who left VDM earlier (6 were not connected)
the remaining market makers
the VDM daytraders
run by the famous egbert!!!!!
The other one is called Caerus Trading(market makers) located at beursplein five. Succes by the way.
a few daytraders started trading at marketwizards.
why have all options not made money this year… and didnt make money last year… when do they make money apart from the altana trade
"why have all options not made money this year"
because they hire and promote people like mr. if-you-don't-get-high-trading-results who is still expecting a bonus this year.
these comments show that a lot of market makers definately got the smallest penises of the financial markets
whahaha
not trading but a lot of gossiping…(like women or gays)
please guys just come out of that pathetic closet….
@ november 19, 2009 9;31 PM
Are you the "flow" trader that fuck up Altana (working for a German bank) and later VW in CS (1 or 2 BN lost)?
Or
Are you a french arogant Bnnp Arbitrage trader?
On a more constructive note, can anyone tell me why there are so many market making firms in Amsterdam? Historical reasons?
Because of the old floor.
Last year was one of the most volatile years and this was reflected in options trading (obviously. one would think an exceptional period for vol traders and market makers to do very well. My question is which ones actually did do well…. Surely last year will show you who the cream of the crop is….. All Options…. Mako… Optiver…. Liquid…. DRW… IMC… Saen… How is it possible that Mako makes 140 million euros and groups like Saen and All Options lose money…
All Options didn't lose money last year…ah gossip
All options make money in April/May by divi stripping but lose it during the rest of thbe year doing usual market making activities.
usual or unusual ?
All Options made a very healthy profit last year.
Saen didn't, but this was due to one event.
In terms of profit rankings (Europe and Asian, not getting into speculation on US ones) Optiver, IMC, Tibra, All Options, Liquid, then the rest.
Shhhhhhhhhh Anyone going to the 'secret' drinks tonight arranged by Ralph Van Put, for the ex-Saen guys? There may be a new market maker in town very soon ……..
@Nov 25 11.19AM
isnt divi stripping illegal?
In 2007, Citadel (US Market Maker) made as much money as all the Dutch market makers + Liquid+ Mako together.
If we stick to Europe then profit ranking is more like Optiver, Mako (Fixed Income), Liquid, All Options (inc Divi stuff), Tibra, IMC
Citadel, SIG and Tiber Hill are largest MMs globally but about 90% of all revenues come from US. Only TH have much of a Euro presence. In terms of profitability in Europe options market it runs like: Optiver, Mako (Fixed Income), Liquid (Eurostoxx), All Options (Divi plays), Tibra and IMC.
Mako's equity derivs team made 60m euros last year, so its not just their fixed income team
what about drw… they are the 2nd largest mm in the US after citadel
The biggest market maker in the USA is Interactive Brokers.
Don't be silly. If you're going to list the rankings you have to put Allard near the top. Who else can lose 100 million in one month and still end the year up 60 million? Mako who? Liquid who? The real game in town is All Capital. Don't count the little man out yet.
I dont get why AO is paying such a low base salary (35k) compared to their biggest rivals IMC and Optiver (and Tibra). IN the long run this will direct all the good traders that have a choice to the highest paying MM's and away from AO I must imagine. Not sustainable I would say!
mako who… they sold 49% of the business 2 years ago for 370m euros. all options is worth nothing. only optiver has a value in holland
How many people work at Mako? How many of them are traders?
@12:10 a base salary is only important for traders without any talent. When you're a good trader, your bonus will dwarf your salary, right?
I see Liquid recruiting for DAX traders again, another disgruntled team walk out of there??
@2.05 Agreed. But for a starter this is important. 35k just isn't gonna pay the bills. Hence talented starters won't start @ AO.
AO also doesn't pay anyone well at any level for some time now. The Altana days are long gone.
Traders could be history quite soon – the fastest growing 'market makers' are the ones employing advanced algorithmic trading. Trading will soon belong to nerds only.
Screentrading is not sustainable. That's why you see all the companies 'trimming the fat' – getting rid of traders and only keeping th every best. If I were you guys, I'd start taking some programming classes…
Right. Because if a programmer who has no clue about trading (although probably not realizing that this is the case) let alone come up with adaptations of existing or development of new trading strategies, "conceives" an algorithm which is highly advanced (irony intended), I am happy to wait on the other side in front of my screen until the Out-of-funds-exception is thrown by my counterparty's clearer. I do agree with you that c.p. programming skills set you apart from the co-applicants but without trading talent only the management career path is still wide open.
what are you talking about…. some firms paid $5 – $10m bonuses last year to traders. How is market making dead….
things are certainly moving in the algo direction but there's a very long way to go before a program will be fully able to replace a human trader…advanced algo trading at MM shops is making the business alot more scalable and also making the handling of thousands of trades a day across hundreds (maybe thousands) of instruments alot more manageable, obviously this means that the number of traders required to sit on the desk is reduced, however to say that programmers with no conceptual understanding of trading will replace traders is not correct. The best algorithms out there now (and in the future) have their parameters set by people with extensive trading experience.
Name one market making firm which paid out this amount to traders (I assume the $5 – $10m are not intended to be on a group but rather on a single trader basis).
you are clueless!
mako, liquid, winchmore, drw, peak 6, wolverine, spot trading, ronin capital, ctc. i think you dont look outside the little world of holland. big market makers, take large proprietary positions and inventories
So what you are saying is they gamble and if they happen to bet "on the right colour" traders get rewarded big time, and if it turns sour, the traders shrug their shoulders and give it a try somewhere else (Altana-Porsche guy?). Sounds like a long-term viable business model to me.
The problem is the clearing model used by Fortis and KBC. They undercharge for risk. If these European trading houses had to use the same model hedge funds use they'd never get off the ground. It's a form of arbitrage for the owners of the trading house. They ride the clearing banks and keep their employees suppressed.
If i look at our haircut calculation Fortis overestimates the risk, and they charge quit a lot for it! Hedge funds use a lot of services from their PB's that trading firms don't need, and they have to pay for those services! Major PB's even admit they are jealous of the Fortis haircut model and are working to copy it. So 8:37, i don't agree with your comments.
they take views on volatility. i think thats what vol trading is about, right…
but no hedge funds use fortis – because they are rubbish
Hedge funds don't use Fortis clearing (not to be confused with Fortis Prime Brokerage, which is the worst in the business) because Fortis clearing is set up to facilitate trading firms, not hedge funds. Hedge funds require many services that Fortis clearing does not offer, but pay for that with much higher fees and lower leverage.
Fortis is definitely not perfect, but I can tell you that many clients of Fortis have been looking for alternatives for years and so far none of them has moved away. From personal experience I can tell you that other clearing firms are even worse than Fortis (goldman, KBC, Merril). Barclays however is getting pretty ok, but only accepts clients over 100 mln, ruling out most trading firms. Also many 'new' firms coming over from other regions of the world choose Fortis.
Don't get me wrong, Fortis clearing has many flaws (stocklending!), which makes me constantly looking for an alternative :), but they are not rubbish.
P.S. I don't work for Fortis clearing and have never worked for them.
I dont know why people would want to become traders nowdays! Salary and bonuses have been cut back loads, making any money is getting harder and harder, the people that run/own the trading their firms are filling their own pockets only, and many trading firms probably wont be around too much longer.
@the people that run/own the trading their firms are filling their own pockets only
so take their example. half the people at shops like that(all options for example) are only working to use the bloomberg and trade their own accounts. allard does not make his money from all options. he makes it from his own trading. it's a conflict of interest but he cannot call you on it since he'd have to expose himself as well. use them like they use you.
right… you can use the Bloomberg-terminal, but with what product do you have an edge when you're trading with your Binck-account?
Directional trading with a Binck-account is rather chanceless.
its only dutch firms that dont reward traders. in the US and uk, traders are still on 40% – 60% deals (with 2/3 guys on desks). thats a deal that has mutually worked for 2 decades. an the partners still do well – look at mako and drw
and the Dutch firm where the total bonus pool is smaller than 40% is…….? Definitely not IMC, Optiver, or Flow traders. (don't know about ALl Options, but I presume they did not go far below Saen's deal, which was ok) Instead, the world is swamped with disgruntled low-paid traders coming from US & UK. Most famous example is Jane Street, founded by disgruntled Susquehanna traders, which is notorious for it's bad pay.
Again some poor misinformed junior trader from some UK/US firm who thinks he is king because his firm has good IT systems makes a comment he should not be making without really getting he facts straight first. Hope you are a better trader.
so if the bonus pool is 40% in holland, why are the traders not getting $2/$5m bonuses last year….
jane street – never heard of them
Anonymous
Never heard of them
Dutch trading firms won't last long?
So the last two hundred years doesn't count right?? Because all markets are going to suddenly disappear? 2012! Oh no, it's the end of the world!!!
Jezuz, what nonsense people are writing on this blog. Trading in Amsterdam is not going to stop. Considering we have the largest trading companies in Europe, which are also carving out huge gains in Asia and the US.
I reckon we have jealous Australians on here – are you scared your precious little Tibra is going to be squashed by Optiver? 🙂
And owners of proprietary trading companies (BTW, just in case students read this proprietary just means they are not public owned – look at the VDM, which was the last and only trading house to try that route…) are not in it for themselves – most of them are grea traders who started up companies. That's called being an entrepreneur, which seems to be a dirty word on this blog.
Flow traders at 40% bonus? Yeh, but who the hell cares. These guys are soooo small they hire about 1 new trader a year.
@Nov 7 7:13pm:
"half the people at shops like that(all options for example) are only working to use the bloomberg and trade their own accounts."
Yes, it's allowed and regulated to trade on your own account at All Options, Optiver and IMC. That's one of the benefits of working for an Amsterdam trader rather than slaving away during weekends in a bank or accountancy firm.
I used to work for a big American MM shop and
they only paid discretionary bonuses…trust me it added up to alot less than 40%!
And trading firms should never be publicly owned given the nature of the business…unless you're Interactive Brokers (Timber Hill) who have a huge client base using their platform to trade through generating easy riskfree brokerage fees
i dont think you should compare drw or mako to all options – two completely different pedigrees
i dont mean to sound rude, but you are stupid for agreeing to a discretionary bonus then. a lot of the big US mm's give you set %'s: drw, peak 6, ctc, wolverine.
fuck it, all options is gonna F%$k optiver in the assssssssss!
@ 1.14pm who said i agreed to it you mug? joined as a graduate (I certainly wouldnt pay a grad a %) and once I felt I had proved myself to warrant a % left when they wouldnt offer one
trainees are not paid %'s anywhere, but sorry to give you the bad news:
if you had proved yourself and they didnt offer you a set %, maybe they were trying to tell you something..
who's the mug…
never heard of jane street…..? thinks Flow is a small shop who only hires 1 trader per year…..? Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about, thereby disqualifying all comments you make. Hope you are a better trader than trading industry analyst.
Oh wait, especially for you: Jane street few billion in capital. few 100 million profit, started about 8 years ago (give or take a year) with very little capital. Flow 120 million revenues last year, 50% bonus pool. Started in 2004 with 5 million. Now something like 150 million (haven't checked the latest records yet). All publicly available information btw.
they didnt offer %'s to anyone is the point you clown…some serious retards on here
Some news about Dax Liquid Recruitment?
Liquid were notorious for not paying people properly under their discretionary structure…heard of one guy who made 4 million one yr in equity options and got a 150k bonus…think the only way they are able to recruit experienced guys now is through offering % deals. They were looking for new DAX traders I'd heard, guess another disgruntled team walked out!
4 Million -> 150 k, not too bad for the company! But rumour is a rumour…
And what about the one wich says Oddo could stop Derivatives?
hadnt heard the Oddo rumour myself…I'd heard the Liquid 4mill–> 150k one from a couple of different sources but yes still only a rumour
sure, the guy is telling that he made 4mln!
while he was just aloud by the company to set up a vol.spread that eventually worked out.
Company took the risk, and the guy the credits!
wouldnt you be a little annoyed if you made 4 million for your company and only got 150k bonus???
well, the point is to the muppet who didnt get offered a set bonus structure in his previous job, is that there are plenty of firms that do: mako, drw, ctc, wolverine, peak 6 etc. i cant comment on the dutch ones.
jane street made more on the bear stearn puts (hedging their broker) than they didnt in their normal business.
I know they had the Bear puts, they do that every year. do you also know how much did they made 2005-2009 on regular business?
there've been some pretty questionable comments on this thread but @8.03 saying Wolverine & CTC pay set % bonuses is pretty funny, i've heard they're some of the tightest (meanest) shops out there!
Does anybody know anything about sun trading? I heard they want to start trading options in Europe?
I heard that Liquid paid their OESX traders so well, they walked and will open their own shop. So seems, rumours are plentiful 😉
I heard they'll be @ Sequoia or in Gibraltar…
Rumour has it they are actually setting up shop in London itself. Too bad the Eurostoxx party will be over once they get the rubber to hit the road.
How many MM are trading eurostoxx now?
F*** those companies which offer discretionary bonus deals or lousy percentage deals. If you are a good trader, the earlier you leave the better. Give them the finger, just like those Liquid traders allegedly did and either join a rewarding company or set something up on your own/together with other disgrunteled traders.
Ohoh you seems to be this kind of guy really angry!!! It means you set up a shop with some guys?
@10.56 well said!
I agree with 10:56. Most of the bosses in these Dutch firms cannot even operate a computer. The only reason they are filthy rich is because they hired smart kids like you to make them shit ton of money. (Dutch bonus loophole – give yourself loads of dividend and leave traders with a small bonus pool)
If you what you are worth then go and get what you are worth.
@ 11:39 You are goddamn right I did!
Gotta love the entrepreneurial spirit on this forum. Did you know that Allard Jacobs also had the same thought and set up his own shop. Got to give him credit for showing the finger to his previous boss who is green with envy.
Don't be silly. The days of being able to easily set up your own shop with small money are over. The industry has moved on.
We are employees and nothing more. We work for the @2:31AM type people who think Allard is some business genius. In the culture these companies promote the reward goes to the employees who stroke the boss(owners) ego and re-affirm he is such a great business leader.
@8:51 Please stop projecting (Freud says hi) and start reading more diligently. I wrote that provided you are a good trader (this is NOT optional) and you are getting screwed at your current employer you should EITHER join a company which rewards performance by means of a solid percentage deal OR you should go the extra mile and set something up yourself. On top of that, I did not say anything about the latter being an easy task. With some lousy 100 k and a bunch of happy-to-make-their-overhead pussies who want to join the start-up you should refrain from pursuing this career path. Kind of weird attitude to think that becoming a multi-millionaire is an easy goal to achieve (the random lucky bastards who make money like others who hit the lottery are of course not suited as role models). But I do agree with your statement about sucking up in case you are stuck with the discretionary-type company (probably involuntarily because of your mediocre performance) and given the rest of your post, I wish you all the best in this regard.
Agree with @Dec 5, 5:28 – the state of the markets today means you need a large investment to compete. The biggest chance of good bonuses comes from working for a medium sized (with at least the scale of 100 traders) or larger prop house, or a bank.
Even with a 40% bonus that's damn good compared to any other career path, unless you are a computer genius, invent something, or set up your own hedge fund.
Anyone of you anonymouses going to the Fortis borrel tomorrow?
completely agree, but only a few groups globally offer "real 40%" performance bonuses. Do any of the dutch groups offer this…….
Not an options trader so might sound dumb,,,
But what is this Altana trade every1 talks about ?
use google: altana all options
http://www.fd.nl/artikel/9426933/schoonheid-short-squeeze
Read the article. Sounds like it was one sweet trade! Wish I'd been in that company when those bonuses were paid out! Nice.
Sounds like a great opp. So why is everyone complaining?
some of them missed it & those who were involved paid 220 mln to AO/AJ(their hardcore competitor) who ultimately hit the jackpot after investing his time at the right place instead of doing regular "market making" activities..
nice trade for sure but there's a chance he'll meet his match again in another mega bet like that..not a great business model to be honest…didnt they barely remain in business during the VW squeeze?
before altana, the aum of the group was $5m
well, I dont know much about this company but looking ONLY at their aggression in Altana..I guess they were not involved in VoW..because had they been on the wrong side..they wud have gone bankrupt and had they been on the correct side..they wud have taken over all Dutch MM firms !
agreed – but they are big punters with the boss who takes all the risk. he had two companies before, which bothe blew up with oversized trades. all options has a very weak reputation in the market but still living off the gains from altana.
In vow, Credit Suisse, a landesbank and ML lost a fortune, several BN each one.
sounds like only a matter of time before they blow up again…you keep going all in you're certain to go bust!
Banks shouldn't trade options for their own account. Accidents will continue to happen.
they went all-in when they had all info : the flop, the turn and the river..how can they go bust ?
Okay – thanks for the answers.
To me, they (all options) seem to be doing well. They made lots from Altana, lots from VW, and bought Saen – so why do people think the company only goes after bets? They seem to have good skills.
The fact they were the only company to spot and get these wins is a big indicator, right?
I'm thinking of applying to them to be honest.
and what about allards last two companies…. he went all in and lost everything.. buying saen was also a bad investment. he bought a nice office, an orc liquidator, crap management and rubbish traders.
guys – question for you all
I am a trader for one of the US banks and have always wondered how much pnl mkt makers can generate. I actually started at Optiver 10 years ago but only for a year before going to an IB – from memory back then an acceptable P&L was somewhere between 1-2m for a relatively senior guy trading 2 or 3 single stocks. Does anyone have any colour on what you are expected to make and what you get paid? Reason for asking is i have a feeling that you guys are being paid way more than the vast majority of the bank traders (yes there are exceptions, and bonuses for bank traders will have a larger dispersion) and you get to sleep a whole lot easier than anyone with any sort of risk on. As for numbers I got 250 + 250 on a P&L of 8m
250k for a P/L of 8m is way too low..
Apart from the 250k being too low (your bonus should be around 5% = 400k) there is a world of difference between a bank trader with lots of capital (cheap funding) and lots of client flow, easy and cheap borrowing and lending, and your bank's good name to deal with counterparties. As a small firm MM you don't have all that, and it is a lot harder to make 8mm without (if not impossible), therefore the bonus will be higher. Typically bonus pools are around 40% for the firm/group. My guess is that only the very small firms might pay individual bonuses. ( but I'm sure if i'm wrong on this there will be plenty of people on this blog to correct me…..)
so you got 500k (£ or $?) total for 8 million net trading profit? What was your avg haircut to make that much? I thought the banks normally paid out about 10% but then I'm sure it depends on your capital usage too…from my experience 1 million Eur NET profit per trader is fairly decent business in a MM shop…and you can usually sleep at night like you said!
was quoting in $ – and yes i know i was underpaid (although a lot of the street was underpaid last year…) Yes at a bank you get an informational advantage, and some client flow, but all flow these days is competitive and trades at or near mid mkt so there is no day 1 pnl on any client business. As for advantageous funding, the banks had a far worse time of it last year than you mkt makers – remember CDS for some names got into the 300s and this was passed through to the trading books while it seems that with the exception of a few crazy days, Fortis kept business as usual. We also have far inferior IT setups and many cptys would not deal with us for the first 6 months….but I digress.
What i am really looking to work out is how much it is possible to make at a mkt maker, both in terms of pnl and take home. I have some pretty reliable sources quoting some enormous numbers – for example Liquid made $110m on estx (but on 30% of mkt share), even Tibra at E15 for the same book. So the question is "how much does the average senior mkt maker make?". I think i am on the wrong side of the business….Obviously this blog is anonymous which is why i gave out the numbers, but i am hoping to see what the numbers are like with you guys
last yr was a pretty exceptional yr for most MM shops so those numbers were almost certainly a one off although I'd love to know how much of that 110 million liquid actually paid out to the traders, this year trading conditions have been alot tougher with Vol getting smashed to pieces… alot less opportunities. The days of one MM trading 2-3 stocks is gone, the question for you is can you change from a bank with the much larger balance sheet etc to a smaller MM shop ( with approx 40% pnl share) and make at least 1 million Eur a yr for them, in a normal yr I think thats the basis to work off of… I know of guys who have made double & triple that in normal yrs and gotten pretty chunky bonuses but at the same time there can be lean yrs too where things might not go as planned.
which "bank" are you working for ?
a US one – of which really only 4 trade so take your pick.
Hey guys as many of you know I'm a headhunter for both market makers and banks – and I used to be a market maker. @ Anonymous / 11.58am: Basically the big boys like SIG pay low bonusses for their quants and market makers, their model is that it is all the infrastructure and pretty much everyone is replaceable (especially the latter) – for all intensive purposes the pay structure is similar to a bank just now with a (much) lower base since most of the banks recently raised theirs. Thats why loads of people left and will continue to leave to set up their own firms. Think of Jane Street, Bluefin, LaBranche – all are full of ex SIG guys. Word is they still made 1.8bio USD last year after losing 1bio on fixed income so they probably really don't care.
The smaller firms on the other hand do pay very competitively. Interestingly your experience in a bank will be valued by some market making firms nowadays since you have an idea of why the banks trade the way they do in the markets and this can be useful.
I think its fair to say that last year you definitely would have gotten paid (alot) more at an independent firm however this year I wouldn't be so sure – as someone else pointed out earlier last year was truly exceptional. DRW made close to USD 800mm just over half of which was on the taking over the Lehman eurodollar book.
In my experience if you make between 20 and 50% PnL at an independent firm of what you can make at a bank you are doing well. The numbers add up since 30% of the lower range is about what you got paid. The 40% numbers mentinoed earlier are correct (and higher) however in this case the support staff get paid out of this bonus pool too. Individual PnL deals tend to go as high as 35%. There is definitely upside if you pick the right firm.
I've seen quite a few people with market making backgrounds who later found jobs at banks go back to market making firms this year for what its worth.
Just my two cents.
so then the question becomes – if i start my own firm, how much can i expect the guys i hire to make, assuming sufficient capital but far inferior IT, connectivity and algos (at least to start with) than the established guys would have?
@ 9:30am To be honest that is a bit like asking how much a ring with a stone costs.
Don't get me wrong here but what you are asking depends on so many factors I don't think you can give a realistic estimate without less data – and even then it might prove to be somewhat meaningless.
I've seen plenty of firms start up in different markets and circumstances so I do have a fair idea of what you might expect but it is going to be a broad range.
If you want to take the discussion offline my personal email is matthew.hoyle@matthewhoyle.com
…and also how much equity do i have to give away to the early employees to get the best guys on the street to join? can't pay any big gtee bonuses, but can pay in straight equity or options
sent you an email
Just wondering what the best study background is to become a trader?
alot of places tend to want guys with computer science/ quantitative backgrounds these days but thats not to say you cant get in with a degree outside of this sphere, but a 2.1 or 1st class honours degree (in the UK)is a min requirement if you dont want your CV to get binned straight away… in general if you're smart and have an ability to learn fast, problem solve, show initiative & work hard you would make a good candidate…beyond that trading does require a certain aptitude, I've seen some seriously Math smart guys fail at becoming traders
Gimme guys that are poor, smart and hungry.
@8:22
Where do I reach you?
why? you're poor and hungry… gotta be smart as well! ;-p
smart is usually rich 😉
but I would not mind getting even more – so, who is hiring?
I heard tibra is still looking for people…..
Do alot of women work in this industry? see here it is quit schokking
http://dealbreaker.com/2009/12/post-134.php
hey check out:
The FBI is investigating possible insider trading at hedge fund SAC Capital, but the most outrageous thing to emerge from the case are allegations of how a perverse SAC manager tried to literally turn a trader into his literal bitch.
Allegations from the trader, Andrew Tong (pictured), were recently unsealed; they may help shed light for the FBI's investigation, since Tong testified to manipulative trading amid a sexual harassment case. Sex allegations from the papers are more sensational than any trading scandal; Tong's most extreme allegations, honed in on by Business Insider, say he was forced by his boss Ping Jiang to perform oral sex (in once case as a condition of being allowed to trade); made to take female hormones and dress in feminine attire; and violated in various other ways:
As part of his "training program, Mr. Jiang set about to systematically bully and control Mr. Tong through obscene sexual ultimatums and physical brutality. By way of example, the following tortious and criminal acts were perpetrated by Mr. Jiang against Mr. Tong at SAC's very own offices: (a) in or about the beginning of February 2006, Mr. Jiang forced Mr. Tong to perform oral sodomy; (b) in or about the beginning of March 2006, Mr. Jiang committed assault and battery, as well as false imprisonment upon Mr. Tong by restraining him with ropes and forcibly introducing certain foreign objects into Mr. Tong's rectum; and (c) in or about mid-March 2006, Mr. Jiang again restrained Mr. Tong with ropes and forcibly urinated into his mouth.
Jiang allegedly thought a "soft feminine touch" made for better traders. Even by the dog eat dog standards of Wall Street, this is a sadistic obsession with power and domination . And a way twisted one at that; the "Swinging Dick" is supposed to be a metaphor in the financial world, not something you actually brandish, in the workplace.
@10.04AM – Which Tibra office is still hiring – i thought there was a headcount freeze?
All options will open an office in Chicago in 2010 (on their web), they will not able to compete against the big algo market makers there
Theres nothing on the website (well i couldnt find anything about a Chicago office in 2010). Can you post a link please?
they just copy the other dutch companies as they have dont have their own strategy
"imc and optiver have offices in chicago so we must have one". as they arent making money, they need to look elsewhere
http://www.alloptions.nl/pages/display/257
all options need to hire more HR staff. That is the sign of a great market making company,
as in physical attraction?
Liquid in Paris?
Did someone heard about this?
as long as they sell calls on any french company, they will make tons of money !
MERRY XMAS TO ALL AMSTERDAM TRADERS !!!!
So who is hiring?
These guys are hiring. New Website too
http://www.tibra.com/tibra_trading_about
I hope for them that their trading software is better than their website. Very messy, hard to find any relevant info.
Tibra makes more money than all you assholes put together………
lachen, die Tibra gasten! Zo makkelijk op te naaien! 😉
They seem to rate themselves. Pride before a fall…..
hi everyone, I am junior options market maker with a US quant house (i cant type in the name for obvious reasons). I have about just 2 years (1yr) trading experience with this firm and want to switch.
I specialise in vol arbitrage and wish to join a happier and more quant driven house. Though i am not too fussed about latter. As long I like the people that I work with then its great.
I'll drop my email address if in case anyone wishes to review my cv (281013@soas.ac.uk)
We've heard so many bad things about All Options. Does anyone have anything good to say? I'd like to hear.
Hi,
If you are really good with numbers and also have a fascination with markets, what is better; Market making or Market taking ?
Is it possible to transfer from Market making to Market taking ?
Thanks.
Market Taking of course. Unfortunately being really good with numbers and a fascination for markets does not help. You need to have deep pockets.
But then again if you have deep pockets coz u are good with numbers and are passionate about the market, u probably are already market taking 😉
The best "market makers" actually use the flow they observe in their market making activities to make decisions in taking positions and this becomes their main source of earnings. This is mostly how the US and UK market makers operate. Most of the Dutch (and Aussie) based screen market makers do not have the "smarts" to trade this way and so take much less risk. The point made about needing deep pockets is true, though.
Interesting discussion here. I consider to start up a market-making business but did not decided yet for the Making- or Taking business model. It seems that participating in the Market-Making / liquidity providing game is one that is run on technology and connection speed. The -Taking model sounds very opportunistic; but might be the right one for a start. Any advice for me here?
If you don't know what you're doing then don't do it
to start up electronic MM you'll need some pretty decent seed capital for hardware, startup costs and trading margin… even beyond that unless you have experience (or know someone who does)in creating and writing code for quoting strategies you can forget about it….also most clearers want big deposits to new accounts, even if you can satisfy this they will not offer you very competitive clearing rates until you show that you are doing decent volumes….market taking certainly easier and less cost intensive as chunky hardware not required however if you only have experience in the market making segment its a tricky transition to make
Thanks for the info 3:55 . Talking about competative clearing rates; what are companies like IMC or Optiver paying as an interest-rate spread? Is that close to 15 B.points +/- Euribor or Libor? Or a number more close to 25 Points?
not sure what their rates would be but I know that alot of the clearers are have increased the interest spreads for all clients, some places not even paying interest on credit balances!
Hmmmm… I guess the clearer's balance sheet and credit-rating itself is here the issue than.
so how much initial capital do you need to start an electronic MM?
Thanks 10:59 and 11:52. I have traded in my personal account for the last 4 years and have been very successful and was interested in Market taking. However, there are very few legit. firms for taking. Most of the reputed firms are doing Market making.(probably because it is less risky overall). So I am thinking about getting a job in Market making, and then see if I can transfer to Market taking. I am wondering how firms view this transition from Market making to Market taking.
Thanks again.
Your style is very unique compared to other people I’ve read stuff from. I appreciate you for posting when you’ve got the opportunity,
Guess I’ll just book mark this web site.