IMC boosts profit with 63%
In less volatile markets, IMC Financial Markets is still doing impressive with a profit of € 127 million over 2013. That’s 63% more than over 2012. The revenue was a nice € 403 million.
Average pay €285k
There has been some trouble in the past with the bonuses at IMC. Most of the variable cookie jar did end up with senior management – with disgruntled traders and especially developers as a result.
So far nothing to report of the sharing of the pie, but at least the average remuneration for the 619 folks at IMC was € 285.000.
Dividend of € 160 million
Other people pocketing a decent sum are the directors / owners Wiet Pot en Rob Defares. The company paid out € 160 million dividend. More than the yearly profit, but the firm’s balance sheet is strong enough for such a move. Still it puzzles me what kind of incentive is behind such a dividend.
Hat tip to quotenet (nl)
first,
how is the average of 285k split between partners and senior staff and rest of populace
there is no need to puzzle over the dividend, this is expected given the lagging roe on that capital within the firm, it’s better to take it out and allocate outside of the industry, the whole bloody financial sector is doing that, you should start reading some headlines about rest of your peers within the sector
how much are rob n pot up now, ready to overtake Johann Kaemingk or already past him?
Any clue what their cash cow is?
Not Amsterdam, not illiquid stuff
Source Capital management must be quite jealous to read about the success of IMC, they are trying since years to copy them unsuccessfully…
why do you assume jealousy rather competitive inspiration from source management?
why are they compying IMC rather other more successful mm, hft, prop, funds?
what steps are source management taking vs imc’s steps in their respective evolving strategy and innovation?
*copying
why are you asking so many questions?
sorry?
why are you not answering any of them?
source is making less than 1% of what IMC is doing, even the CFO is leaving once he realized the bad financials…
how much was gross trading revenue vs fixed cost at source?
where is the cfo headed next?
IMC
why is imc hiring cfo from a failing firm?
So many questions and so few answers….
There ain’t stupid questions, just stupid people with even more stupid responses to them
There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.
to sum up, both of you are muppets, now kiss and make up
some news about akuna and its newest member:
adrian robinson used to work high up in citadel
akuna hired him as the CTO for 250k salary + bonus
adrian robinson brought a load of developers from citadel to akuna
adrian robinson got fired while his buddies settled down as head developers
a year and a half later, akuna rehired adrian robinson to run their up and coming asian division.
firing and hiring… it this normal in this industry?
hiring and firing, yes; otherway round, well, take a guess
was adrian actually kicked out or did he just take time out?
hey there. fellow akunite here. i never got to meet robinson but from what i heard he was good at doing big structured projects (like citadel) but at the time akuna was smaller and more nimble so his skills didnt match… i heard there was quite some drama before/during he got kicked out… now, we’re rapidly expanding into asia so my guess is his skills for a bigger company and the whole process is now more useful.. dunno, im sure the higher ups had a lengthy discussion whether to bring him on or not..
Such a big dividend sounds a bit suspect. Looks like IMC shareholders might be getting their money out while they can.
imc hiring source cfo = incorect
Your splelling is the only thing that is incorrrect… It’s happening – fact.
I’m 200 mil bid on the hilgers v Wien pot wealth spread
When optiver go public next year hilgers is going to be out of sight.
got to hand it to akuna to recognize the timing and the person; the timing wasn’t right at that point but robinson’s abilities aren’t lost on to them permanently
if such a big dividend at IMC sounds suspect, then you should investigate more rather than jumping to first stupid conclusion that comes into your mind to help your ego’s confirmation bias?
have you looked at their balance sheet and equity base post-dividend vis-a-vis requirements at their operating business
what’s the market cap optiver is hoping to achieve if the ipo rumour is even remotely being considered?
Div > net profit can’t happen forever. Money worth more outside than in? No growth prospects?
What did optiver make in 2013? Tibra ?
There certainly b some retards posting absolute shit. Say’s law bitches! Replace the word businessman with business
Any IMC spinoffs since Tibra?
Div > net profit can’t happen forever, of course, but for now it has happened only in 1 year, how are you extrapolating that out to infinity?
Money worth more outside than in, of course, didn’t you read – ‘there is no need to puzzle over the dividend, this is expected given the lagging roe on that capital within the firm, it’s better to take it out and allocate outside of the industry, the whole bloody financial sector is doing that, you should start reading some headlines about rest of your peers within the sector’
No growth prospects, of course, read above again if your ego blocked it one more time to go in your genius brain
you can’t equate
‘Money worth more outside than in? No growth prospects’
with
‘Such a big dividend sounds a bit suspect. Looks like IMC shareholders might be getting their money out while they can’
the first one is fact, the second one is your ego’s speculation
they were trying to sell the business and it didn’t work out and so no need to keep capital on the balance sheet, hence paying out big dividends
when did the try to sell?
How is it better to have lazy cash on the balance sheet? Is anyone stupid enough to pay a multiple on cash?
what were they trying to sell?
Yes, it’s better to have lazy cash on the balance sheet during time of transaction so that buyer gets the sense he is buying a part of company with solid fundamentals/balance sheet overall; also seller can come into negotiation with a strong hand rather than a picture of forced divestiture
you are confusing the ‘level of multiple on business’ with ‘multiple on cash’, you can attract higher multiple on stronger looking business, multiple on cash is of course (1-marginal tax rate)
http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000281323
they were trying to sell the business.
Doubt that. Why would you buy a failing floor business to add to your profitable books to flip the company ?
So you can say you are not hft
https://www.interactivebrokers.com/download/SEC_proposal_high_frequency_trading.pdf
Peterffy (master market maker) suggests speed bump: “We would like to recommend that all U.S. equity and option trading venues be mandated to hold any order that would remove liquidity for a random period of time lasting between 10 and 200 milliseconds before releasing it to the matching engine”
Quite a serious action to file such a letter from a market maker imho.
can u rephrase this – ‘Quite a serious action to file such a letter from a market maker imho’
jeez, for a technology firm, that’s an awful scan of the sec letter
I mean it is quite a serious action from a mm to ask the regulator to introduce rules that would ruin all the profit generated by the mm’s hitting strategies.
Efforts to sell “liquidity taking” as providing passive liquidity seem fruitless, i.e. they seem to accept that too fast liquidity taking, at the end of the day, does not add value. IB seem to get sick from race to zero. Also, IB’s brokerage business would probably profit from the suggested randomized latency. Still interesting as a rule like this could in one stroke make millions of investments in technology worthless (RF lines, FPGAs etc)
it would have been serious action years ago when they were monopoly, but not any more, given that the speed game has become race to bottom, it makes sense to kill off this dead investment, so it’s perfectly rational to ask the regulator at this point of time to put random speed bump
you actually state the above yourself in your second para, so you explained your own seriousness to yourself, or is there still some leftover seriousness
Timberhill hasn’t been able to compete on speed for years. They get picked off by people that did invest in speed, that’s the only reason he wants a speed bump.
still funny to see that at times when mms join forces to protect their hitting by arguing it is good for the public there comes one stating the exact opposite. I can comfortably assume that mms make way more money by hitting than quoting, so speed bump would be a blast.
why can’t peterffy invest in speed, he’s only worth 10bn, enough to buy all the hfts around, no?
why is it a random speed bump and not a fixed delay ?
pffy is wise enough to invest into things that generates money that is backed by value
fixed delay does not solve the race problem. with introducing the lottery, speed does not count anymore. see explanation in the letter
jesus, people should start reading before they post questions, here is the link again
https://www.interactivebrokers.com/download/SEC_proposal_high_frequency_trading.pdf
there is whole para on ‘Why randomize the delay’ and some more
pffy should have been wise enough to invest into being fastest that generates money that is backed by monopoly value of being fastest?
If you’re on the screen making markets in thousands of option strikes, aren’t you sitting prey because no matter how fast your are it will take longer to move 100,000 quotes on numerous exchanges than for someone else to send 1 order?
I think what he is proposing makes complete sense as it can restore some faith in the market place all the while saving millions on the race to zero – which of course adds zero benefit to those that the markets are supposed to serve.
yes, that’s why you quote the widest possible but dime around your competitor and switch off quoting in fast moving markets, duh
so pffy got your approval, he be over the moon when he hears abt it
“yes, that’s why you quote the widest possible but dime around your competitor and switch off quoting in fast moving markets, duh”
And thus you really aren’t a market maker who should be paid to provide liquidity – you are merely just a pretender.
eh, of course you are a market maker, you are putting in bid-offers aren’t you, if it’s too wide, then you are welcome to dime me and be a better market maker?
looks like you are new to this, give it some time and be back later
dime AROUND your competitor? really?
yeah mate and you should check this out while at it, would be perfect for you, make us proud
http://www.wudc.info
I think tibra once made more money that Imc. Now Imc makes way more. What happened there?
try buying a lottery, you hit jackpot once in a while
It had more to do with Tibra’s cost being lower and the company being united. IMC had a new management style after the new GS partner bought shares
As posted above, the problem with Tibra needs to be sorted internally. They are in the league of top technology trading companies just not enough contribution by top equity stake holders.
how do you want tibra problems to be sorted internally, any specific recommendations?
how did you conclude they are in league of top tech trading firms?
how much contribution by top equity stake holders is ‘enough’?
Glenn Williamson, any comments on above?
About the interactive broker’s proposal to SEC.
Magnificent 🙂 If I understand this right, the randomized time is per order not per instrument or matching event.
I feel there is something similar happening at xetra, not voluntarily, just a side effect of their internal architecture, and not a millisecond level, but at microsecond level.
“Glenn Williamson, any comments on above?”
About equity stake holders not contributing enough? Being a shareholder doesn’t necessarily mean you have any right or obligation to contribute so I don’t really understand the point you’re trying to make.
If you own a million BHP shares, are you contributing to the company?
junior is back, nice, why does he think something similar is happening at xetra?
I have both the right and obligation to contribute and I do, i engage management with constructive discussion, supporting or discouraging operating or strategic choices, both intellectually and through capital allocations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activist_shareholder
to answer the earlier question about fall of tibra vs imc, If tibra’s major shareholders think like Mr Glenn, no wonder the company is a shinking ship, shareholders are bloody owners of the business, start thinking and acting like one, just look to your left at rob n pot
every exchange has some variance on the latency on their lines – there is network equipment inbetween, with queues of varying lengths in them etc making latency a random variable so that it very well can happen that an order bypasses another on the way to exchange. so there is already some natural lottery in the system, on the micro scale though , 4 magnitudes smaller than what pffy suggests would be appropriate (10 millis)
define t
Isn’t equity/partnership the greatest motivation to do better for the firm given your earnings are tied to it ?
BHP is a publicly listed company, sure its got enough worker drones 50K according to wiki. But smaller private firms need the top performers and decision makers to hold max equity, else it is in the wrong hands.
you need top performers and decision makers to have skin in the game even in BHP, else it is in the wrong hands
127mm profit but 285k avg for >600 people? How?
127 profit is for shareholders, salary expense is a line between gross revenues and net profits
take a quick accounting class before you start reading accounting statements or derivations thereof
Here in front of Tibra’s beach offices in Wollongong, you can have a look at the atmosphere and the ride of one tibra’s shareholder…
https://www.google.fr/maps/place/108+Lawrence+Hargrave+Dr/@-34.307004,150.93427,898m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x6b12e01e4a19b949:0x3f2e8963c3683b85
do you work at bnp arbitrage?
why do we care about some random black ferrari unless it’s covered by all velvet, meet the furrari
http://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/422562/FURRARI-Hapless-owner-leaves-velvet-covered-Ferrari-outside-in-the-rain
Skin in the game. LOL. I know a complete twat who says that all the time. Except he has some questionable skin (not worth the paper it written on) and bad teeth. And he is so fat.
because some ugly fella says it all the time, so it’s got to be false, for sure?
Thought Osi was IMC CFO
He is being replaced?
nobody cares, next
OSI is not CFO at least not on any org chart due to tax issues he had. He is now in Chicago.
nobody cares, really, next
Osi is no more the CFO
when is the CFO of source taking over at IMC?
16 Aug
What is the Source CFO name and where will he be located?
http://bit.ly/1q9rORb
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/paul-wolfrom/a/933/68
Location Amsterdam, jesus christ, you can’t use your head at all after all day of curve fitting?
is that all or are there any more pressing questions about the cfo at useless source or the cfo at completely useless imc, people have had to have completely lost sight of the landscape to waste their time discussing who is the bloody cfo at firms which are largely technology driven, does anybody ever bother asking who their cto is rather than who is their head accountant
can we move on finally or is there more dribble coming?
who is the CTO at source?
they haven’t got any, duh, why do you think the cfo is jumping the sinking ship
Remco Lenterman from IMC about HFT
http://www.iex.be/Column/131350/Niks-schijnquotes-de-markt-is-veranderd.aspx
why do you think they are talking about the CFO instead of the CTO?
you wanna give a hint?
re lenternam artcle: you know that scene from pulp fiction when Samuel Jackson screams “English, Motherfucker, do you speak it?” I just remembered it… I can read 4 languages… but dutch is not one of them.. I can only interpolate some between german and French.
why do people bother asking a ceo what he thinks about usefulness of his business, of course he thinks that they are doing god’s work
anyways, the english translation is so poor, it’s not even worth going through any of it
so what’s the fourth language that junior can read, italian or spanish maybe?
the dutch are playing very well today
Close, have another try.
Wtf are you doing to the spanish players ? Ruining their big fat bonus…
No, it’s not portuguese. Try again.
lol, no one cares mate, get over yourself, next
any offers on aex-ibex spread monday morning?
how can there be a high frequency trading company without a CTO?
Jack – 65% of income before bonus goes to Rob n Pot.
So the income per employee is incorrect. Take out 65% then divide by number of employees for the answer.
65% is quite high, since when is this percentage so high?
it’s not high at all, you can start your own imc and you can keep 100% of income, you are the owners, you can do whatever the fuck that comes to your mind
of course there can’t be a high frequency firm without cto, thus cfo is moving to a firm which has one
this Source Capital company must be real crap based on most of the comments published… but why are people even bothering to talk about it, who cares about this irrelevant small company?
‘how do you want tibra problems to be sorted internally, any specific recommendations?’
The problems is Tibra’s management and owners, they do not add anything to the business but want to cash in big. This used to work 5 years ago when there was lot’s of easy money to be made but with competitive markets today senior employees will simply not accept it, thus this business model is not sustainable and doomed to fail. Let’s face it, Tibra’s shareholders & senior management have to clue on how to make any money in current markets, what they do is hiring those who can make money but take the biggest share of this new money for them. This is like saying that head hunters expect to make a much higher bonus than the traders they hire… would this make any sense?
To answer your question on recommendation: shareholders must stop managing what they do no understand. Get new managers (=people who know how the money is made today), give them shares, make them partners, give then higher bonuses, etc. For the current shareholders it is better to get a (much) smaller part of the cake than nothing at all.
how is this basic shareholder guide you just presented any much additive to the earlier discussion around ‘shareholders are bloody owners of the business, start thinking and acting like one’
you certainly did manage to waste whole two paragraphs with nothing new to the table, is that what you do on a daily basis at Tibra?
who knows whether Source is really crap or not, there are indicators either ways
the reason people talk about Source is that they were in past a Source of lot of money for lot of people, now with the company probably suffering, those people are looking for others to blame the mess on and thus the constant moaning and complaining
this previously happened with other irrelevant firms as well like vdm, ao, tibra, webb
‘they were in past a Source of lot of money for lot of people’
are you sure? This seems to hold for only one person in a very distant past and for a not-too-impressive amount of money… Can you give just one example of a positive indicator?
who was this one guy that made lot of money at Source?
Anybody else made money there?
Anybody wants to give a positive indicator that Source is doing well?
if Source was never good, then why did these moaner and complainers join in the first place and how come they are all acting so surprised now that the ship is sinking, wasn’t this expected from their day one?
add liquid to the list of glory long gone and only complainers left behind
these moaners and complainers joined in the first place because source management consists of exceptional con artists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_trick) and certainly not because the company was doing great
do you believe everything that hiring company tells you? If you can’t distinguish between good and sub-par, then those moaner and complainers aren’t very good to begin with and would have failed even in a good firm?
what’s the best platform for retail fx punter?
how about saxo?
Let’s face it. It is VIRTU, Tower, Jump, and GETCO kcg.
All other are shite.
you talking about hft or best platform for retail fx punter?
Knightco is shite now. PnL down across the globe with thousands of bonus hungry mouths to feed. Management infighting and many star players running for the exits. If not for getting all that US retail business locked down they would be finished. Rumor has it that lower performing desks or offices are on the chopping block as mgmt tries to “restructure” the business and push traders out. Of course this plan will fail as their alpha walks out the door to a competitor more quickly than they can transition into a pure execution services company. It’d be a miracle to get this business flying again. The GPWS in the bosses heads must be screaming: “SINK RATE” “PULL UP”
why don’t you spend your time finding a new job rather than moaning and complaining?
what’s daily P&L at getco?
IKBR no 1 profit company
Optiver no 2
SIG no 3
IMC no 4
DRW no 5
Getco used to be up there, but the KCG acquisition is eating eating eating profits already.
Virtu?
including knight, daily gross trading revenues in mios, 2 bid at 4
virtu is in its own league, it can’t be bunched with the rest of wannabes
Who is Virtu ?
http://bit.ly/1ifo0vC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtu_Financial
who are the managers at Source Capital and why are they considered to be con artists?
Dudes
KCG is a publicly traded company. PnL is published. They are still making more money than IMC and Optiver combined. Go look at the Q and K.
How much of that PnL is from real trading vs. retail order arrangements? Face it, even a monkey could quote to retail punters. Look how much of their PnL they pay away in payments for order flow and execution costs, not to mention the massive sales force to keep all that flow coming in. This is not the same company that was taking home 25mio rebate checks from Q every month. They can’t compete at that anymore. Everyone is fast now and knows the same tricks.
One GQR recruiter tried to sell me KCG and told that they are making a lot of money and pay huge bonuses.
like $500k huge
Dudes, kindly pay attention to my giant balls
Now, listen careful, because i am very fucking important
has anybody looked at the Q and K for KCG, what’s the annual gross trading revenues?
of course, GQR is going to trying to sell you whatever shit they are peddling, they doesn’t give a shit as long as you buy it?
Source managers are considered to be con artists because GQR headhunter got few people hired over there for dreams of 500k bonuses which of course never happened, GQR headhunter is of course not the con artist in the whole story, nor are the complainer and moaners completely unaware of the 2c that they are really worth on the street
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-06-20/why-i-love-high-speed-trading
http://money.howstuffworks.com/con-artist.htm
you should post that con link to your two year old, for the rest, either they already know or they are too brain damaged to ever know
I don’t like your unpleasant language
you are right, i will behave
what’s wrong with suggestion of going and crying to your mama?
what’s with all this censorship, have people become so sensitive that they can moan and complain about somebody harmlessly pulling their leg
Source Capital managers are considered to be con artists (and also morons) because they do not honor contracts and agreements (eg change the P&L share, increase costs dramatically by inventing non-existing expenses, top up trading fees rather than passing them to traders as agreed, and much more). They openly lie and make fake promises. They try to profit from moments of individual weakness and then try to turn previous agreements in their favor, they are supported by an unscrupulous in-house lawyer whose only task consists in changing employment contracts every second month making sure to suck as much as possible from people.
if Source managers don’t honor contracts, then you can take them to court, it doesn’t mean they are ‘con artists’, here read this link since you sound like a two year old who doesn’t know what con artist is
http://money.howstuffworks.com/con-artist.htm
why are you calling source managers morons?
If you believe everything that people tell you or promise you, then it’s your problem, of course people lie and make fake promises, everybody lies, doesn’t mean everybody is a ‘con artist’
Of course you have to profit from moments of individual weakness, they are not running a charity shop, they are in business of trading, in markets if you find somebody in corner, you squeeze their balls and put them out of business, wall street and hedge funds are littered with graveyards of whales that got harpooned right in front of everyone, you are confusing competitive nature of business with the idea of fairness, of course it’s not fair, you are welcome to find a job in a more ‘fairer’ business
Well, I guess Optiver’s decided to do a press release before publishing their 2013 figures, see http://newsoninvest.com/?p=24909. According to the blurb:
“Last year more than half of its income was generated outside of the European Union. In the year to December 31, Optiver said net profit attributed to shareholders rose 23 per cent to €174.6m. Net trading income rose 26 per cent to €466m in the same period.”
Bottom line seems to be that Optiver had the bigger profits but that IMC’s making more per capita.
yes, financial markets are all about imc vs optiver, welcome to happy dutch village
not only the CFO left at Source, in the last months I can count:
CFO
Legal
HR manager
a quant
three it people
it looks like they’re trying to hire back most of the people, but management is not transparent at all about the current situation.
can you use IT rather ‘it’ pls, it’s easier for your audience
why are you double-counting cfo, didn’t you already mention him in the first line?
how do you mean trying to hire back most of the people, you mean hire back same people or hiring their replacement?
how many quants and IT staff do source have currently?
they’re trying to hire a replacement for the people who left. They usually go for junior figures, to keep costs low.
there are around 7 trading groups
well that’s completely rational, people are way overpaid in this industry, so cost-cutting by salary reductions or hiring cheaper staff is completely fine
for these 7 trading groups combined, how many quant people and IT people are employed; your anecdote about 1 quant and 3 IT staff leaving sounds like natural rate of attrition; the other people leaving are, well, natural, those people have little hard-to-replace skills, but are still very well paid, so if you can kick them out and bring cheaper replacement, well that’s just smart management decision making
[…] reported 738 employees in 2013, IMC reported EUR 176M in remuneration over 619 employees, KCG reported USD 437M in remuneration over about 1100 […]