All Options lost 43m in ’09, paid 28m for Saen
Dull trading lately, moving on to 2011 in a very slow pace. Not much happening apart from some spikes in the futures. Just between enjoying the Christmas dinners and showing off with fireworks next friday, there is some small news. Well, it ain’t exactly news as it won’t be a surprise to most readers and Quote was faster to report.
Here’s the full annual report for All Options over the year 2009 in pdf (large). It feels like Allard Jakobs bought Saen Options years ago, but the deal was actually closed in 2009 and therefore integrated in this annual report. We all know what happened afterwards, scores of jobs axed in cost-cutting measures and the departure from the prestigious former trading pit at the Beursplein as a trading floor. This year will likely be even worse than 2009.
Financial analysis isn’t my field of expertise, so correct me if I’m wrong. First of all, the trading revenue dropped from 51 mio to a little short of 20 mio. Some years are better than others, but this decreasing revenue is accompanied with a heavier burden of costs. Unsure why exactly the general and administrative expenses ballooned – the IT expenses more than doubled to 11.7 mio. The total bonus was crystal clear, exactly zero.
As mentioned, 2009 was the first year for the annual report to incorporate Saen Options and states how much was paid to Ron Meijer for his firm. The trading software AtomPro was valued at 4,5 mio, and the total purchase for Saen turned out to be 28 mio – of which 8,5 mio as goodwill for the traders and the expected synergies. Judging in hindsight is easy, two years later.
For download ; the annual statement in 48 pages (pdf).
Few other quick numbers i see,
Operating loss -36.7MM
Net Decrease in Cash -9.8MM
So loss hasnt resulted in cash outflow, though this can’t really be accounting loss given the 60% drop in trading revenues, cash outflow might happen like the 5mm tax outflow
Auditor’s Fees 936k
gud show KPMG !
opening office in Chicago & expanding in Asia, not any more I’m afraid…even their net trading result of 50 million in 2008 was pretty poor compared to the likes of Optiver, Liquid etc
Does it say how many traders they had end of 2009?
4.5mm for atom pro… it must be really shit if that is the value of it!
i would like to buy some puts on all options and imc. i know they must be extremely expensive, but are there any offers….
i would like to offer some stock as that shit is going down to 0.
I can offer some stock as that shit is going down to 0.
here we go again with bids on AO/IMC puts and offers on their shares, tiring old shit !
jealousy or just plane stupid.
Is it worth while applying to AO now as they accept applications again in January? Do you at least learn a lot so you can leave after a year or two and make money somewhere else?
what do u think are u going to learn ?
which company do u think u cud use ur ‘learning’ at ?
why do u think that particular new company is going to pay you, if AO was smart enuf not to pay you ?
AO and IMC wont be around this time next year. thats why imc is trying to set up lots of different business lines like cordano and a small hedge fund. they make zero with market making, and their quant trading business in zuch and chicago is financed by an external party
Well, AO did not pay any bonus to anyone for 2009 and most probably does not pay any bonus in 2010 either. I do not think that they only employ idiots over there. I will be making money because I will be a good trader – it is that simple. I read a lot about trading and I performed really well on the test AO has on their website. BTW how much do/did you make for the years 2009 and 2010?
kiddo, go play with your marbles
marketmaking is dead
thats why drw and mako continue to make fortunes from it muppett
2009: -43mio
2010: -75mio
what will next year bring?
“I will be making money because I will be a good trader – it is that simple. I read a lot about trading and I performed really well on the test AO has on their website.”
statement of the year
its year end kiddo, why dont u keep ur statement with you somewhere and re-visit it every year end .. we’ll talk abt it when/if u grow up ..
really, i didn’t realise was in that bad a shape?
2010 expected to be -75mio? That’s quite a lot…
@ 3:26
Hilarious, some guy who tries to troll a bit by writing that he’s applying for a job at AO and some moron @ 3:38 somehow feels the urge to react on it as well! That’s pretty funny.
@ 5:05
the young kid was looking for some answers, but he wasnt asking the right questions ..
if you find this funny .. u should try looking at urself in the mirror, you’ll find that much more funny ..
What about IMC??
I have heard a lot of rumours regarding huge losses in 2010.
Is this true?
cftc will make an example of them. im based in the US and its very clear over here what the views are of the law enforcers in trading. its not that optiver did something in trading that was very wrong, its that they lied to the regulators. for this they will be severely penalized.
imc is treading water – they dont make money
defares wants to sell the business for obvious reasons. unfortunately nobody wants to by risk taking businesses which is why he is trying to change the view of imc to an asset mgt company with an advisory firm like cordano
which is a worse company to work for…. imc or AO
what does Ao stand for…. Ass Open
Re: What about IMC??
I have heard a lot of rumours regarding huge losses in 2010.
Is this true?
Did u hear the rumours from
a) this gossip blog
b) mid-office guy
c) FT Alphaville
d) Drunk Traders from All Options
e) bloodsucking Brokers
f) some poker bluffing junkie trader
I dont know why I bother reading this blog anymore, havent see an intelligent discussion on here in an age…all you guys do is slag off other firms…new years resolution lets have some informed discussion on here starting from tomorrow! happy new yr!
Couldn’t agree more . People know nothing just a lot of negative BS .
No good info to be found here .People talk about companies they know nothing about . Optiver or IMC not making money ? In your dreams ! 2010 was a good year for them . Tibra or Flow going down ? Wrong again . But still a Happy new year to you all.
Could people stop asking what company to work for ? As if morons like that will ever get hired !
Great year all of you…!!
Less hatred… more trading…!!!
2011 … the big year…!!!
First post in 2011 🙂
happy new-year everybody!
2nd post . Happy new year ! let’s make this an even better tradingyear than 2010 !
Re: Couldn’t agree more . People know nothing just a lot of negative BS .
No good info to be found here .People talk about companies they know nothing about . Optiver or IMC not making money ? In your dreams ! 2010 was a good year for them . Tibra or Flow going down ? Wrong again.
If you wanna give us some positive BS, then atleast give some information. Saying Optiver/IMS is making money is so vague .. if you know what sort of trading p&l they have for 2010, kindly say it out loud or just shut up .. also if u say tibra is not going down, why do u think thats the case .. Nobody in my memory has said that Flow is going down .. shows that lot of ur talk is plain old BS ..
You miss my point . Problem is that the 2010 figures of Optiver and IMC will be published in 2012 so that’s when you will see that it is no BS . Topline will be at least up 50% .You’re right about Flow but I’m sure that one of these days someone will start about them. So see it as an premptive strike . It’s annoying to see people being so negative about their own community . What makes it even worse is that that these people are obviously not in the know or are to lay to read the filed reports of some of the companies .
unless you are working there and you see that there is no money being made!!
“also if u say tibra is not going down, why do u think thats the case”
Well done getting the burden of proof the wrong way round. Someone else already posted Tibras latest numbers which are six months old and they are doing fine.
Re: Problem is that the 2010 figures of Optiver and IMC will be published in 2012
thats not a problem .. some insider can post the numbers if they want .. outsiders can just stop speculating .. its pointless bs .. how do u know “Topline will be at least up 50%”
Re: “also if u say tibra is not going down, why do u think thats the case”
Well done getting the burden of proof the wrong way round. Someone else already posted Tibras latest numbers which are six months old and they are doing fine.
i am not trying to burden with the person with proof wrong way around .. he said tibra is not going down .. i ask him what and how he knows that .. i myself have no idea abt Tibra’s future .. and so i dont speculate ..
now since u state tibra’s numbers were pasted .. i think i dont recall any such post .. if you can paste that or u can stop with ur random recalls of memory ..
(4.52pm) “Topline will be at least up 50%”
Talk to your point of contact at your clearer (…probably the same as theirs…) and you know that’s a lie. Most companies did considerably worse than in 09. That includes those already mentioned (Optiver, IMC, Tibra, Flow).
It is clear to me that you really don’t know how Optiver and IMC have done in 2010 . Just as you probably don’t even know how Optiver has really done in 2009 .
as it was said earlier, if you work, there, you know
(8.39pm) The Optiver 2009 results have been discussed to death. 6 million net profit, down 97% from the year before (net trading revenues down by approx. two thirds). It is a seperate thread on this blog, for crying out loud. So please tell me, how did “Optiver really do”??
Given that poor performance, not a lot is needed to boost net earnings by 50%, I will give you that. 6m … 9m …. either way, for Optiver that is a disappointing result. Whether their net trading revenues went up by 50% (that’s the number the clearer sees, not so much the costs of the operation) … well that’s not what I’m hearing. Oh and you will probably be wrong with your statement that Optiver’s 2010 earnings will be filed no sooner than in 2012. Their new “transparancy” offensive led to them to filing their 2008 and 2009 earnings within 6 months. So I would say I’ve got my facts straight. But of course you are HAPPY to prove me wrong, to put your money where your mouth is and post the numbers here so we don’t have to wait until 2012. Thanks in advance!
Clearing people dont know their head from arse .. so not much credibility to their stated claims ..
outsiders can just stop speculating unless they have really credible source of inside info ..
“now since u state tibra’s numbers were pasted .. i think i dont recall any such post .. if you can paste that or u can stop with ur random recalls of memory ..”
It’s in the Liquidity provider auction and Win/Win thread. In short, they made $160m trading, and expenses were something like $60m. Go search for it yourself, or buy their report from ASIC.
yah i now recall that post .. same old selfish bs .. dutch style cheapness .. the report is available to be brought and so go and buy it .. wtf .. some of us are rather junior in the industry and given the crisis in last 3 years are still waiting to have any sort of substantial bonus come our way .. so either fucking post wat the report says or stop fucking refering to it .. if we could afford to buy that shit, we wouldnt be fucking wasting our time on this fucking blog ..
rather junior and rather angry
go work for a charity, loser
on a related note, why do random people feel the need to defend against a tough but fair response .. guys man up pls .. its time already to face some of the realities ..
Word on the street is that IMC posted record profit for 2010, ATG picking up speed. I’ve heard nothing yet on Optiver or Flow.
ATG is algo trading group i suppose. This word on ur sydney wall street comes from
a) this gossip blog
b) mid-office guy
c) FT Alphaville
d) Drunk Traders from All Options
e) bloodsucking Brokers
f) some poker bluffing junkie trader
g) clueless clearer
“some of us are rather junior in the industry and given the crisis in last 3 years are still waiting to have any sort of substantial bonus come our way”
ITS. THIRTY. EUROS.
Maybe if someone points me to Trader Jacks email address I will consider sending it to him. Or I might not.
so, who fucked up in Imtech this morning?
Thanks for paying the THIRTY EUROS .. gud stuff .. it be gud if Trader Jack can post this like AO and O reports .. its jack@amsterdamtrader.com .. cheers ..
what happened in Imtech ? cash or options ?
options
some PMM/CMM that choked
This blog used to be ok, but it’s going south really fast. Lately most comments are shit. Let’s at least try to have a discussion that makes sense and/or post facts and not bs like “I heard x etc..”. Or even worse “what company is best to work for”.
PS: all teh best in 2011!
Great comment log time ago insider (what the f#ck is log time ago insider?)
I am glad your comment is of high level !
By the way, which company is best to work for ?
Sorry anonymous: Typing error.
If you comment do it in correct English: you use “which” if a choice is provided. E.g. Which company is best to work for, KFC or MacD? If no choice is provided, you use “what”.
So back to school or shut up!
Cool…didn’t know that. Finally learnt something usefull on this forum again. Tnx long time ago insider.
Re: some PMM/CMM that choked
cud u elaborate more pls, thx,
zucht! @ 4:19 it is useful (one l)! I suggest spending some euros on English lessons.
whats with people complaining about poor english .. this is not a letter to shareholders/senior management .. this is a web blog and people use short forms of english, like online chatting .. are dutch finding this form of english too much for them ..
besides, even on letters to shareholders/management RDD didn’t care to use spellcheck
RDD was out of touch with reality .. so nothing too surprising about his tales .. but seriously its so often the case that people complaint abt the use of english short form like online chatting .. this is a online blog after all ..