Liquidity provider auction and Win/Win
Around a week ago the latest auction of the Euronext liquidity provider schemes (ELPS) was held . The coming year the liquidity providers for liquid stock options like Royal Dutch, Mittal and Aegon and a dozen of small stocks have been selected. There hasn’t been much movement – didn’t notice anything particular at first glance. The main interesting stuff is in the play-off competition, where 323 Trading is the contender. 323 Trading is collecting a lot of PMM schemes, and is challenging Optiver and Nino in Aegon and fighting against Optiver and IMC in Akzo.
All Options still in the game
Few months ago All Options declared to cut back in quoting obligations, as market making would be “dead”. In reality they will remain the proud provider of liquidity in options like Draka (pmm) and Vopak for the next twelve months. Their bark is worse than their bite.
The official outcome of the liquidity provider auction is downloadable here on pdf.
Win/Win
One more thing. Saturday the 23th the movie Win/Win will be on Dutch national television. Even if you have seen the movie already in the cinema, this is the best opportunity to show your family and friends what a derivative trader is actually doing. If you spot technical errors – blame All Options as they have been training the actors for a day. After this weekend you can watch the movie on internet for two weeks (the movie is in Dutch language).
Win/Win – 23 october 2010 – Ned 3 – 21:57
I see Optiver in a few play-offs versus 323 Trading and Kemp Trading (Nino Options)…interesting.
Pavarotti Confirmed. Best Trainer. He’ll also get you a good deal on a mortgage. Just ask him! (unless he’s already solicited you on work premises, during work hours)
pavorotti? i’ll vote for jabba the hutt. may be the same person though? mmmm peanuts.
hrmm enough of eating peanuts…back to spending hours looking through hundreds of resumes to pick 8 ‘rookies’, which we’ll just use them to clerk for us and then fire them. good times.
i’d say more like snuffleupagus
could be a new morning meeting pearl of wisdom…
‘hoover the edge, like he hoovers those peanuts’
That’s enough from all of you. Get back to work.
By the way, can I have my old job back?
ah, the viper…’watch out, the viper will get you’ ssss
Just bully the market
Attention!
All traders must cover their open positions immediately.
Our credit line with Fortis has been maxed out by some unauthorised trading in peanut futures.
We have our head of training investigating the matter. He has assured us that he will get to the bottom of this terrible breach of protocol once he takes delivery of a personal package.
where does pavarotti work these days?
here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrMEqlKDKbs
hahahaha!
hey, this is hardly fair. i work really hard. in between eating peanuts, reading resumes of people we’re just gonna fire anyway, open outcry and running my mortgage business, i chair the speed meeting…we almost got a good trade the other day because of me!
what is pavarotti’s real name?
don’t you mean speed eating?
ahahaha.
that’s a slice of fried gold.
(with melt in your mouth peanuts)
Sounds like there are some bitter clerks out there with an axe to grind. In case you whinging kids hadn’t heard, all players in the market making are struggling. Why are you suprised that you along with many others were let go? I don’t know who you are talking about with “Pavaroti” but you seem to be getting personal for what was most likely just a cyclical down turn. Harden up chaps as it really is time to move on with your life and not be so bitter.
is skeletor still head of hr? her and old pavarotti/jabba the hutt/snuffleupagus made a formidable team…
jabba the hutt? haha
hilarious
at least in oz we have no fat traders
I have some good news and some bad news.
The bad news is that in spite of your highly relevant training and the market leading system at your disposal, you couldn’t make money.
You are a useless asshole and are therefore fired.
The good news is that your loan has been approved and your first payment was due yesterday. Thank you for your business.
In All Options we are now at a key stage, we are building a longer lasting market maker. We must increase the level of accountability in order to compete. And our main challenge is to stay focussed on our mission and make sure everyone is onboard
true. a couple of traders that are absolute cnts…but hey, at least they’re not fat.
And All Options has a superior software product which together with our trading expertise generates a key competitive advantage in today’s marketplace
It’s not really about bitterness, it’s more about exposing the cloak and dagger style that liquid operates. leaving liquid was one of the best things for me, but what about the other 28 ppl that were hired and fired, some after only months. those that turned down other jobs, ancitipating they would be operating in a decent environment in a good job, then absolutely treated like sht and then discarded without any real ‘experience’. then management have the nerve to say they started the company to ‘help others’ and play up the whole giving to charity thing, when they couldn’t give a fck about their employees. it’s wrong, and hopefully any young person out of uni reads these comments before deciding to join liquid, and chooses the other option.
the alloptions posts are the funniest by far.
Rotflol all options posts !!!!
the chick wasnt the problem
Haha I love these Gen Y clerks that expect to come in as the HoT. To bloke above who got fired by Liquid, I think they are the real winners going from the garbage you are talking. Do you honestly think senior traders start at the top? We all pay our dues as clerks so why do you think you are any different. I am sick to death of these whingey clerks thinking everybody owes them something. Harden the F up dude as you sound like a whiney little B.
Young graduates think that their second class degree in Economics from a third rate university entitles them to be a trader making 5 mil a year? Wake up dudes, this industry is so competitive, if you would want to join it – you are probably too stupid to be worth hiring.
I hate tibra…. begin.
White collar boxing is popular on Wall Street and in London.
As the battle between Optiver and Tibra is taking too long in the courts, I propose that Optiver stage a series of boxing bouts versus Tibra.
I would like to second that motion however I move that no independent ombudsmen be present at the contest as to afford the rest of the market makers a chance kick tibra in the the teeth, liver and kidneys while they are not looking. This would only partially go in the way of compensating the industry for having to endure their retardation thus far. All in favor say Mkay.
who are pavarotti and jabba the hut? is it aj?
Tibra sucks big time – run by inept management
11:09
related to a tragicomedy in the city famous for its opera house
hey Jack,
just a little correction. Akzo is between IMC, 323 & Optiver.
in Aegon Nino is actually challenging 323 & Optiver. AO dropped this one…
jemig, je neemt een dagje vrij en Jack gaat meteen los met een nieuw topic.
zo nog even shoppen met de vrouw in Purmerend of all places.
jullie/allen veel plezier met de vrijmibo!
Hahaha mr senior trader, sure u paid ur dues but it doesn’t give u the right to treat ppl like sht. If u thnk I am talking garbage u r kidding urself, no employee at liquid gives a sht about the company. So that’s saying something. Happy to sort it out at white collar boxing, or in the street.
Go AllOptions!!!!
He Allard, jij ook een goed weekend !
I like how some junior traders think they’ve got the bloody right to become the star-senior-trader.
Get real ex-junior traders-clerks (whatever), not evereybody is made of the material of a trader. And when your employer finds out, he is not keeping you just because he’s a philanthrop.
This business is about making money and your employer (Liquid) fired you because he thought, you are not good enough to be a trader. Get over it and move on!
ur still missing the point pal.
tibra…ruining the market since 06….
arb it, or just descalp urself…watever…
i know, lets do a broker trade for 2 ticks, then throw it all out in the screen, move the entire market, make no money from the trade and still have half the position….more dutch than the goddam dutch.
meh, no junior trader thinks they have the right to become the star trader. u r missing the point of the posts.
the point is ppl are getting fcked over, moving cities in some cases, missing other grad roles and having to wait another year or year and a half to get another decent job because of the bs hiring policies. sure maybe they don’t have ‘it’ in terms of becoming a star trader, but how bout hiring less ppl, investing more time in them and u might be surprised how much better the culture would become.
arbit like it’s hot.
funny how tibra started as ftd…’fck the dutch’ and they are worse than the lot of them
tibra are by far and away the most narrow minded idiotic mm trading house in the world. The policy of pipping every broker market by the minimum tick size has ensured that a broker just has to call tibra every little while tell the trader that they have been pipped which will cause them to do the same. Going on like this until the trade is executed at the absolute minimum edge for the mm. Tibra is happy they have “traded”, while the rest of the market scratches their head when they look into the screen and see that the trade is now worthless. We can only hope that the tibra loose the court case and go bankrupt. F-ck you tibra your worse then the plague.
yeah i dont understand tibras approach. maybe they know they are going to be bankrupt after this court case and so are trying to take everyone down with them.
from above two posts, I can imagine how much stupid a person can be..
Tibra going bankrupt ?? Is it true ?
cave man much stupid yes grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
So no fine from the CFTC for Optiver then? What does everyone think of this article?
The Optiver Empire
Paul van Riessen, Cees Jan Siersma, Martin Dijkstra
October 2009
After the blood red trading year 2008 a lot of private financiers are licking their wounds. Optivers traders came unharmed out the struggle. In fact: thanks to their speedy trading system they made a record profit of nearly three hundred million. How the farmers from the Achterhoek became master of the exchange.
Seven years after the start-up of the Amsterdam exchange ‘the right of the strongest’ still counts. The trader with the biggest mouth, the sharpest elbows and the most effective push of the shoulder has the biggest chances to go home richer at the end of the day. All tricks are pulled out of the closet. So do some of the multi-coloured coats exclusively eat spicy curries, to make sure their competitors are mislead on a crucial moment by a well planned fart. Former exchange director Ulf Doornbos remembers well how he drew yellow cards for such dirty tricks and sometimes he even had to throw people off of the floor. ‘Not all of them knew how to keep themselves standing in the pit. I’ve seen boys who were way faster in calculating than others, but couldn’t get used. They were just snowed under by the attitude on the trading floor.’ Doornbos didn’t have much faith when the then 26 year old Johann Kaemingk and the 35 year old Chris Oomen came to tell they wanted to play along in 1984. ‘They were two very modest boys.’
FARMERS
Chris Oomen wanted to become a doctor, but since he couldn’t stand blood, he choose pharmacy. Since making pills gets boring eventually, he applies at Health Insurance Company DSW in 1978. There he grew up very fast. He had quite some money left in the eighties, which he, among other things invested in gold. ‘Until one Friday Afternoon, I couldn’t get rid of my position. Every time I offered the offer price, or wanted to leave the bid price, the prices were simply adjusted. I couldn’t get in or out. Then I found out that the responsible market maker already sat down with a fat cigar in his mouth and didn’t feel like trading anymore. Then I thought: I want to sit, down at the other end.’
He got his buddy Ruud Vlek interested in the idea and together they decided to establish Optiver. ‘That wasn’t that easy,’ says Oomen. ‘In order to get a chair, you needed to be a member of the exchange. And to become a member, you needed a chair. This impasse lasted for two years. By that time the bank Pierson, Heldring & Pierson was willing to give me a chair on loan. That’s how it started.’
Oomen and Vlek got to know Johann Kaemingk via others, who had shortly been working at ABN AMRO back then. With Vlek on the background and Oomen in an advisory role, Kaemingk has to bar on everything.
Initially the bruisers don’t take it very seriously on the trading floor, tells Jeroen van Rooden, who was hired as the first trader. ‘We were nothing of course. We were almost literally a lone wolf that had to make sure we kept standing between all the big force of the others. The stock exchange was already a bit fixed and no one was waiting for more players.’
Henk Beltman, who was shortly hired after Rooden by his friend Johann Kaemingk, remembers the plain contempt. ‘Johann and I are from the Achterhoek. The others called us the farmers.’ In fact, the peasants from Optiver are only taken seriously when Pierson takes an interest a short year after the foundation. ‘By then we were able to trade sharply’, says Beltman. ‘The resident class didn’t like that. They had to have it from the big margins, while we on the other hand traded because of our discomfort about the high commissions that were paid to brokers. We shook matters up.’
With the boarding of Pierson, Heldring & Pierson there was finally serious money available. For that time, as the story goes, Kaemingk feels the need to visit the local butcher and baker in his home town Lochem, to ask them to provide money. The ones who said yes back then, are now amongst Hollands richest retailers. Today, Optiver is the country’s most biggest and successful trading company. In 2007 they made a profit of 217 million Euro, last year, under the line, so after the pay out of all prominent bonuses, 295 million Euro remained. It’s Optivers best year ever. ‘Pretty funny actually’, contemplates a former employee. ‘In my days some of the option guys kept big positions themselves and we took big risks. In a year when the entire exchange collapses, they’re supposed to lose a lot of money. If we had a similar crash ten or fifteen years ago, Optiver would have gone bankrupt, same as other parties.’
But luckily for Kaemingk, Oomen and the other employees, who in 1998, after the cancellation of a initial public offering, again all shares pull to themselves, times have changed. In 2002 the last market makers leave the floor and the trading transfers towards the computer screens. The money is still being earned by the purchase and sale of stocks, by which the profit is made by the difference between the bid and offer price. Fast systems, programmed in a way to think like traders, make sure that sequel transactions are made immediately and automatically to cover risks. Whoever does that the fastest – and a milli second of thinking time does make a difference – can’t actually lose. However, if you want to make a lot, than you have to place big volumes, since the margins are minimal. The three hundred million Euro profit of 2008 is therefore the sum of a lot of pocket money.
Nowadays, mostly computer nerds instead of market makers make the difference for Optiver. And no other company was able to stand the bending from floor to screen this good. Henk Beltman thanks Kaemingks vision, who as a good chess player is able to think a few steps ahead from the beginning. ‘Honestly, I thought to myself: we do a good job, so why should we be concerned? Let’s try to keep it a bit how it is, then a few people are able to make a living out of it. But Kaemingk always wanted to move forward, he is no pirate who wants to make a quick fortune. He kept on about being focused and disciplined. That meant we were always present at the trading floor.’
MANIPULATION
The boys from Optiver remain obvious outsiders. While traders from other companies come together at the end of the day to celebrate their successes or to drink or sniff away the hangover from losing, the Optiver boys keep their cool. Of course, they go for a drink every now and then, but always only with each other and always in moderation. Possibly that also has to do with the fact that Optiver is already in a early stage very critical about what people should be hired. Where other parties if necessary get their traders from the Albert Cuyp, Optiver prefers graduates. ‘Preferably I wanted to hire theoretical physicists, since that’s the most difficult study that exists’, says Oomen. ‘Those are the people who are extremely suitable to build models. To my opinion stock trading is purely technical, as long as there is enough volume. And with the years, this has shown.’ Oomen is looking for smart guys who want to outshine in their business. Mostly the brilliant spirits aren’t in it for the money in the first place. Within Optiver there is no showing off. Even if millions are being earned, employees behave modest and steady manner. ‘I remember the time that a trader licked his bonus cheque and stuck it to the wall’, says a former employee on a base of anonymity. ‘Me remembering this, inclines its seldom. Furthermore, no one showed off with his money. The trader who came to work in a Ferrari after cashing in his bonus received a signal that this didn’t fit in Optiver’s culture.’
Optiver motto ‘behave ordinary’ means also not talking to journalists. The request of cooperation with this article is being decisively declined.
The stock exchange director Doorbos also notices the decency of the boys from Optiver. And Johann Kaemingk in particular. ‘Johann is charming, honest and a pleasant human being. ‘Let me say it like this: If I created a rule implicating that certain things weren’t allowed, there were always some people who would just cross the border. Johann never joined them.’ Extra painful is the news in 2008 that Optiver is under suspicion from the American exchange watchdog CFTC saying they manipulated the trading in energy contracts. Not only is the company being sued, but also former Director Bastiaan van Kempen, Manager of the American branch Chris Dowson and Trading Director Randal Meijer, currently CEO. According to the commission they agreed in March 2007 on a recurring basis what is known as the TAS contracts. In those contracts, the price hasn’t been agreed on, since those are being calculated according the average rates from the last minutes of trading. By getting in big or stepping out, Optiver influenced the price in 5 cases, so is the opinion of CFTC. The company is supposed to made a million dollars with this technique, called ‘banging the close’. In order to support their plea that this is a purposeful tactic, the public body publishes intercepted e-mails and sound fragments from listening in, showing the accused discussing the deals. They do discuss it in terms like ‘bullying and whacking the market’. Literally translated: how can we torture, whipping the market. The gentlemen also discuss what to say in case someone asks whether this is a case of manipulation. Although this doesn’t sound entirely proper, insiders doubt if the accusations will survive in court. ‘At that time, we were dealing with the high oil price of 150 dollar a barrel. A lot of people had troubles with it and American politicians told the exchange watchdog to act upon it, since they thought it was all the caused by speculation, says an anonymous share holder of Optiver. ‘This was of course the case. There were a lot of speculators active. And they picked one: Optiver. But probably, what they did is not even illegal. I’m certain that the big American banks worked this way as well. Presumably they made sure a foreign party has been caught. The annoying part is that all traders who ever lost in oil trading, now claim. In America you don’t want lawyers chasing you.’ And indeed: at the moment, three class action cases took legal proceedings against Optiver. One of them is Roberto Gracey, whom over the last years has proceeded with at least three similar cases and is known overall as a privateer. It is uncertain how many people already joined some procedure, but for its own safety Optiver has already reserved seventeen million Euro for the completion of the legal claims.
WHIZ KIDS
For journalists and other voyeurs, the accusations are fun to read because in spite of their proper image, Optiver employees turn out to be like ordinary people. So still Dowson daydreams about possessing an even bigger boat. The transcripts handed in as evidence, provide more insight on the proportion of the possession within Optiver. Van Kempen takes in 2007, besides his regular salary of 55 thousand dollar, according to the CFTC, 1.7 million dollar in his share of the profit of Optiver. That’s not all he has to live from, he also regains a bonus. And that isn’t a small one at Optiver. In illustration: in 2006 a HR recruiter told de Volkskrant that new employees are expected to get a bonus of twenty thousand Euro in their first year. After the second year that triples and afterwards the counter continues goes up to even more than €200,000.
A lot of people use their bonus to buy shares in their own company, which ties the connection with Optiver. Also good for the team spirit is the habit to not level the traders on their own results but to share the profit resembling with all employees. ‘The fact of bonuses is, if different incomes are put in place, the people who are working towards a shared goal will be prized apart’, says Oomen. Traders need to be prepared at all times to accept loss if this makes a colleague able to make an even bigger profit. At trading company Van der Moolen it works differently: there was it one for one. It’s exactly this culture that created the recent downfall of the company, so claim insiders. Also on another level Optiver does work differently to its competitors. Take All Options from Allard Jakobs. With a profit of 220 million Euro in 2007, he is absolutely not a small player, but he thanks this profit to one deal which made him able to earn 217 million Euro. ‘Allard is absolutely the smartest kid from the year, but also an enormous gambler. This made him go bankrupt before. Although nowadays it went well in several occasions, it can’t be any different than this guy going down’, judges a trader. It’s no big surprise Jakobs wasn’t able to get used to his former employer at Optiver. The questions arise whether he would be employed nowadays. Traders not only have to pass a numerical test (with questions of the level: what is 10,3 divided by 2,8), they also have to take a psychological test. ‘Our people have to have an enormous amount of self-discipline and be able to accept their losses fast. This seems to be easy, but as a matter of fact, is very difficult. If we had two hundred applicants, it was a lot when we hired one or two of them’, clarifies Oomen. He wanted to prevent fortune-hunters from joining the company in an early stage. Other trading companies were less focused on this. Because of this, last year, the Amsterdam market maker Intal went bankrupt when a trader found a way to avoid the alarm systems and took irresponsible positions. Oomen: ’Risk Management is our first priority. And our second, third, fourth and fifth. We have known this for a long time, but other companies just found out in the recent crisis.’ Optiver still needs less and less traders and more IT people. The proportions nowadays is two whiz kids on one trader. They built trading systems with names like The Hammer and F1, that outshine in speed and are able to give an automatic trading price in a split second. Optiver is the most valuable company in the business thanks to this technological lead. This also brings us to the futures risk: you are able to lose a technological lead. This was found out by the Australian branch of the company, where Tibra Trading’s traders knew how to beat Optiver’s systems several times in a row. According to Optiver, who hired private detectives, this was only possible because of the newcomers –all coming from Optiver- stealing the source codes. Evidence exists of employees who, shortly for their departure, sent information on the system to their private e-mail addresses. It’s now up to the judges to decide whether there is enough clues that Tibra deals with stolen technology. The demand for the comparison of the two source codes by experts has already been assigned. In general, these are exciting times, since the Australian judge only has to decide that this is a case of theft or Optiver loses its leading position.
And there is the case of competitors who are trying, at own strength, to match the systems. That day is inevitable, as the speed of traders will reach its maximum. Optiver therefore looks for different markets. In the beginning this brought us an example in our own country. Optiver launched trading system TOM in close cooperation with Binck Bank. If clients from Binck want to trade stocks or derivatives that are traded by Optiver as well, both parties can trade outside the exchange. This increases the amount of transaction costs. Competitors were pretty disappointed to only be able to join TOM in more than two years. Optiver was able to create a lead of two years on itself in this subarea.
In spite of this cleverness, Optiver is unlikely to beat its profit of 2008. It will probably be known as one of the best years ever, so traders think. ‘We experienced some special circumstances. The exchange moved heavily. It felt like the Wild West, a lot of trading took place and this made us able to earn a lot. But it’s unlikely to experience a year like this again. In the mean time, it’s really quiet on the exchange. Especially with the index going up very slowly, like it’s happening at the moment, with say, half a per cent each day, this is killing for the trading. In Optiver’s case it’s better to drop down very hard.’
next time post the link dude!
The article is from last year. A lot of things happen since then, so I don’t think it’s worth discussing anymore.
the authors of this article should be fired for writing such bad english…
If you think this Belgian accent in Win/Win is hard to bear, some companies have Belgians around every day 😉
Oh, I get it. Gen Y attitude is the problem….. So a bright graduate from a top tier university takes the marketing spin at face value and signs up to this “elite commando squad”. Basic training involves classes in basket weaving and open outcry reacharounds, after which the clerk is parachuted into afghanistan armed with a bow and arrow with only sunglasses for protection. After said clerk is picked off by drones and laser guided missiles, he returns home in a body bag, where senior commandos who’s job it is to invade Tonga scratch their head and wonder why “they don’t make ’em like they used to”…
riiiiiiight….. Maybe the class of 2011 will be different somehow.
prefer it to listenting to the french
Open outcry reacharounds? Too funny!
I’d love to see any of the old star senior traders getting involved in the open outcry or mock trading shenanigans, results woild be interesting.
Just to see if they have ‘it’ rather than calling it frm their goddam ivory towers.You know.
At the end of the day market making is not trading, it’s just calculating and all you guys know it (most market makers have fuk all idea about the markets). Worst of all, unless you are the MD or owners or the firm, you will never make enough money to really be in the game. Just a bunch of coc*suckers.
wow. it’s going off out there on the soapbox. good. I can’t imagine who wouldn’t need to vent these days. but as a veteran and senior trader since the floor days let me weigh in on the environment.
trading/market making has always been a bloody business. it’s not for most people, regardless of what they may think or dream upon graduation. i reckon 1/10 makes it, maybe 1/6 at a firm that is fair. and the ugly reality is, your degree doesn’t matter. yes, you must have a brain, but your b.s in commerce or finance guarantees f…all. one of the best traders I have ever seen had only been a cab driver previously. i’ll back street smarts over private school anyday.
that being said, firms don’t need to be a..holes to the ones they do bring in. hire just to fire. yep, that’s LC alright. bizarre. there was a time that a firm could be fair and equitable to their employees. make plenty of money and not saddle their employees with the feeling a gun is being held to their head.
so many firms have proven they can trade and make money. but nearly everyone fails miserably at managing to even a decent degree the culture of their business.
it’s a minefield out there, and LC is an anti-tank.
well said mate. at least one senior trader not wearing rose coloured glasses.
I heard there are two senior traders at Liquid who don’t even hold a University degree. Can anyone there confirm?
meh, don’t think it really matters. floor days were a different time. think the guy above covers it pretty well.
Stupid comment from a stupid kid. It’s all about the runs on the board & I’m sure Liquid wouldn’t employ anyone who isn’t making money, probably such as yourself.
pretty sure the guy is just taking the pss…
Few old dinosaurs in here taking comments to heart. Just relax old fella’s, or you’ll give yourself a stroke.
I really feel sorry for you guys, the reality is LC has the worst reputation on the street. Yes I am a MM at a competitor and the sad fact is that whenever we have the opportunity to trade with you we will take it with both hands (we know your shop is filled with a bunch of geeks who can’t trade at all). Even worse the IBs view you as even more inferior (my girlfriend is at Goldmans and best mate at Deutsche). Looks like your stupid management and HR need to take their fingers out!
awesome!
this website is being ruled by US-/Asian-traders during the nighttime.
Amsterdamtrader goes international 😉
Anyone here like LC?
Win/win is shit, like the company that trained the actors
I do.
Then you must be a massive LC geek. Look around buddy, everyone around you looks like a loser, can’t find a girlfriend and used to get beat up at school 🙂
I can’t help thinking.. how would Gerard from AFS feel today? please ask for a lot of dec TEN markets..
don’t make me send some plagues
Ah well, if anything they won’t need to perform their annual employee satisfaction survey, just point them to this link. Should save a few bucks
What’s this about an employee satisfaction survey? Will I be part of this as well?
LOL @ Mario Been
But back to the subject of this article.
I really admire the ‘big winners’ of this auction – all the so called PMM’s.
323 especially, with their new obligations in poor stocks like:
Crucell
AirFrance
Akzo
Heineken
Randstad
Fugro
Vopak
Wolters Kluwer
ASMI
Nutreco
who’s gerard from afs?
Liquid “50 lots only” Capital.
what? i thought they were size players?
LC is one of the most profitable firms on the street this year…. shows how much you guys know. Going to get some shut eye now
and…….sold
offered over. Got a bit of size there too.
I’ll make a prediction and that there is actually only one person writing these anti-liquid comments on the board. We get it mate, you are pissed. Maybe time to move on as it is really getting boring. The whole industry has been doing it tough and liquid like many of its peers laid plenty of people off. Did you ever consider that by the time you started there that the market had significantly changed hence why so many were laid off? As a heads up do a bit of research on the GFC on what the investment banks did for all their graduates in 2008 / 2009. Most of the big players laid off all their graduates over that period. It was not a reflection of the people but merely indicative of the state of the market. Maybe you could be a good trader and just suffered from bad timing. You really do need to move on though as this is a tough industry and from your comments it sounds like you just don’t have the toughness.
Lastly have a think about what you are saying. Do you really think that a firm would put on 28 traders, spend months and months training them and sack them all? What benefit is it for the firm to do this? You are coming across as bitter as the comments just don’t make sense.
@ 11:33am
Chris, is that you?
lol
Gregg – no I’m not in today. Must be Steve impersonating us again. It’s embarrassing.
It does sound reasonable that only one person posts on a 24 hour basis just to pretend that he is not alone…
is LC a good place to be? who knows. The only self evident truth in the market is that tibra are a bunch of spaz-remo-handicapped-idiot-moron-fags who try to mm option strikes like they are futures. They are the company who have killed PL for the MM. It is a company so riddled with internal conflict that it had to sack one of its founding members. Gentlemen please, I beseech you, please channel your energy to the real evil in this market place.
OMG you are a loser. I hadn’t been on AT for a few weeks and come back to wade through the excrete being spewed and from some candy ass complaining about getting the boot. Let me help you out dude because I have been through the same training program at Liquid (3 years ago). In my intake half the guys in the class made it through and I only left 12 months ago to take on a better book elsewhere. My experience at the place was positive and regardless of what you claim your girlfriend and best friend say it has a good reputation in market making.
Can you cross your legs princess as we can all see up your skirt.
LMAO
I agree it seems like you formulate your trading experience on who your counter party is. Who does that? Honestly have you ever traded an option in your life? The brokers do not work like that, I mean seriously either your a nancy girl who dosent know how to trade or your some middle office fudge packer who is pretending to know what he is talking about, either way your comments holds no weight. How about spending some time on a trading floor before commenting.
Looks like the days of trading being for Alpha Males are gone if this pin d1ck got a job. Maybe you would be better suited to working in a florist or a hair dresser =)
Guys any chance I can have a slice of the business? Guys?
Alpha males don’t use emoticons. Go back to a teen chat room you fag.
I hope the guy with girlfriend in the big bad investment bank gets lobotomised for the sake of the human race
Haha not just his girlfriend but his best friend as well. What a c**k smoker.
I will sell my share for 1c, any bids?
ok….. I will sell receive 1, just take the debt
This is too funny!!! Does anyone actually know the name of the guy who got sacked from Liquid Capital? Please share his name as this is cringe worthy.
yeh, one person that doesn’t sleep…hrmmm
pretty sure there’s a long line of bitter ex employees at all market makers, not just liquid. just goes with the territory. unfortunately, not everyone makes it, some deserve to make it through, others don’t. some that are still at them don’t deserve to be there and vice versa.
anyway, think liquid has been covered to death….any chance the article can be discussed?
I agree it is time to name and shame
haha is there seriously no bid for bandari’s shares? hilarious.
is tibra really in that much trouble? what’s the story?
hrmm tibra ‘stole’ something valuable, got rich, got sued…blah blah
so what happened with the optiver v tibra hearing? wasnt that due out the other day or something?
the days of just alpha males trading are long gone, well outside the states anyway. it’s all chess and bridge players these days. don’t need a big body or a big voice if ur behind a computer screen.
anyone? optiver v tibra?
don’t think its happened yet?
People who define themselves by actively playing bridge or chess are a rarity in trading firms. Many traders play poker.
Go Tibra!!!!! What are you all complaining in an industry where money was litteraly for grasp ! Finally a company that makes you all struggle a bit like it should be!!!! Oleeeeeeeeeee!!!!
I here the rookies at Tibra drive Ferraries!
and apparently they have a canteen in their office run by Gordon Ramsey?
In the London office they eat fillet mignon, in Amsterdam they eat bread. That’s the dutch for you!
The senior traders at Tibra drive Bugatti veyrons.
I hear many Ferrari and Bugatti drivers (irrespective of their profession) only can show some 3 inches and they try to make up for it with extra horse power – but they simply do not succeed.
Poker is utterly boring, although, of course, anyone can do what he wants in his spare time as long as he makes good money for his employer during trading hours.
I am a broker from London and can testify that Tibra make so much profit because they quote tighter than the rest, so they participate in all of the flow. It is quite easy money for them because the other market makers are too timid.
@ 6.23
Mate you sound suspiciously like one of those girls at optiver which, errrr, rather euphemistically have the title “whole” “sale trader”
right……..! moving swiftly on……
uhm what do you get if you replace the L with an R in de word; whole sales trader
@Broker from London:
I’m guessing the most profitable company in your eyes before Tibra was All Options who also loved to give ridiculously tight quotes?
Weird, blaming one market maker firm for the lack of volatility and margins? That is bullshit. And I second 7:22
Tibra participate in EVERY trade, that’s why we’re the best. And the most hated.
a couple of things
broker from london – fark off – you have no idea. You assume that the most active traders make the most money. Incorrect
tibra guy – fark off further – arrogance like that does you no favours, there will be no shortage of people looking to kick you when you are down when you inevitably do fall. Plus trading for the sake of trading brings no value to you or the rest of the market
do the brokers really know how trading works? do ex mm’s become brokers to get on that gravy train?
You have no idea what you are talking about. Tibra is where it’s at! Yes the place is a bit fuked at the moment and there are alot of geeks and nerds, but we definitely get paid, unlike the rest of you on the street. The bloke who sits next to me came from LC and says he used to get his bono once a year. What a joke! In his third year at LC his bono was half of what I got in my first 6 months. Now that says alot.
what is tibras bonus structure?
And we get to work 5 minutes from the beach. Beat it!
From the beautiful North Sea beach? That’s great for you….
the arrogance you are displaying is going to kill your company
Unlikely
Yea its great but we will never get paid the good $. $300K/year doesn’t get you very far these days.
For those that start their own companies I salute you! I’m just a pussy at the moment but my time will come.
pride comes before the fall.
There is no pride. I would rather work at an IB any day than work here. People still look down on me, there is no status at all being a MM.
yeah and rightly so – mkt refers to all you mkt makers as ‘fleas’ and ‘rats’. IB’s wouldn’t have you
When a market maker doesn’t have a shitty model or auto trader to tell them what to do, they are fukked. They seriously have no clue how to trade.
and front running client order flow constitutes real trading i suppose?
yes, please tell us how you trade oh mighty bank trader?
ok i will. my structured team put together an opaque product which they sell to some sucker at several vols over fair. then my quant team tells me how much vega equivalent i need to hedge in the etos. then i press the button to lock in this hedge and then i go to the bathroom mirror and replay scenes from wallstreet to myself, while i leave the warrant quoter on and get assfucked by a market maker while im gone.
how do you make money?
i take the other side to you?
lots of little boys on here talking a lot of rubbish…. liquid are a big company with very big overheads and have a rather nasty habit of shafting decent traders on their bonuses….hence the large turnover of staff.
Tibra/optiver… cant be that good there guys cos there appears to be a mass exodus of traders and directors (never a good sign!).. tibra partners have shares that they cant sell and a potentially devastating court case against them.. also they do not compensate you that well because its their investment in their systems that they claim makes the money so at the end of the day you aren’t going to get a decent cut of the pie (if there is one)..
my advice stick to the companies that allow you to take “risk” and manage mkt flow once you have gained the confidence and ability to do so… plenty of decent deals out there for good traders that actually like to trade rather than setting vol parameters and pushing the “on” button.
is the lawsuit that big that it will cripple them??? what are optiver asking as damages?
i dont know..but the point is the decent traders are leaving and the business cant be sold or changed until the court case has been resolved.. its been a few years already and with appeals its going to be a few more.. hence everyone wants out including equity holders…. the only ones that will stay are those that don’t have a clue and couldn’t mkt-make their way out of a paper bag..
Dude. This forum is awesome. Hey Gregg, can I have my job back? I can’t get back in the business. I mean that whole GFC thing changed everything. And everyone says I’m too old. Guys? A little help over here please? Anyone?
so, equity holders are trying to sell their stakes?
this is obviously gonna play out over a long term, no side will give up….lawyers will be the winners i guess.
a legal battle playing out over the longterm. lawyers the winners. no way! is that really all you have to say? back to your screen tumbleweed. you’re not entertaining
i guess i could just say that you’re a complete faggot robert.
“is the lawsuit that big that it will cripple them??? what are optiver asking as damages?”
There was a directions hearing on the 22nd October. Doesn’t look like much happened – the only meaningful order made was that any discussion of damages be set aside until after the substantive issues are dealt with. In other words, only if Optiver can prove their case do they get to a hearing on damages. In my (relatively limited) experience, judges generally only do this if they think it’s a waste of time to discuss it during the trial – it’s usually an early indication that the judge thinks the applicants have a weak case.
Still no date set for Tibra to file their evidence – could be up to a year away given how slowly the case has gone so far. Next court date is on the 19th November at 4pm (in Sydney), where they will discuss a Notice of Motion.
lol. Trust me, as someone who has the actual correct information, Tibra are going down. That is why we were told next bonus would be zero (and this isn’t because the market is so bad at the moment). Still the founders will walk away with millions and the rest of us will go get another desk job like the losers we are and continue to never really make the big bucks.
as a matter of fact…
To 9:32am:
The reason you’re not getting a bonus is undoubtedly because you didn’t make any fucking money! What’s your net profit this year? What are you trading?
There are some other things about your post that make me think you are retarded.
1. The Tibra founders are the ones with most to lose because they are the biggest shareholders. They won’t “walk away with millions”, although they could walk away with millions of shares worth zero.
2. You are clearly not a founder, yet you think you have “actual correct information” which only the founders could have.
3. What I find most amusing is that you claim to work for Tibra, supposedly “know” that it’s going down, but haven’t found yourself another job?
So much bullshit on this site.
but do they really have a canteen run by Gordon Ramsey?
@ 9.32
Dont pretend you know anything about tibra (bonus announcements).
In general, too much BS on this site, do you really think profitable MM will interfere here? they are just laughing at you, find a job plz..
Hey Trader Jack – what happened to the little box that you could tick and it would email you comments as they happened – I’ve missed out on some juicy gossip!
And to you guys that work for All Options and Tibra, and get on here and bitch about them, why haven’t you resigned?
I hape applied to other places, including all the IBs. No one will give me the time of day. One stupid HR person had not even heard of Tibra.
Has anyone seen or herd of Bandari since he went AWOL? Rumor has it he’s somewhere in the Tora Bora
Not sure about the canteen run by Gordon Ramsey at Tibra, but there was also a rumor that one of the founders wanted to buy a lamborghini with the rest of his desk (who all bought one too) but when he went to the cardealer he found out he was too tall to fit in the car, so he bought a ferrari instead so he didnt have to live down the shame
Bandari was on Letterman the other day. Apparently he is trying to get his rap career off the ground.
I saw that he went on the show with Rob D. from I MmC !
yes they do have a canteen run by the chef of one of Ramseys restaurants
hopefully he jacks off into the soup
What happened to providing liquidity and making markets in the TAS?
They were making too much money banging ur mum’s close.
The Optiver v Tibra case will drag on for a while. The burden of proof lies with Optiver to prove that (a) they had copyright in their software and (b) Tibra infringed on this copyright.
Optiver have had to amend their statement of claim several times and the court even ordered them to makde a statement of the nature of their case as it was too ambigious. Then to top it off, their so called experts have not even produced an experts report on the alleged similiarties between the two codes – they have had seince mid dec 2009 to prepare the report and still nothing formally lodged. What does that tell you?
If you read the recent copyright case law, the threshold for proving copyright in a medium has increased and that will make it harder for Optiver to prove. Why? Because Optiver are claiming so many people or authors contirbuted to the software. Optiver’s problem is that whenever works are created through the efforts of many individuals, there is a risk that copyright cannot be claimed in such works unless each individual involved in their creation can be identified.
As with any private company that has a tight membership of company shares, the market to offload them really depends on who wants to buy it and what is a fair prce. Illiquidity is the probem for companies for Tibra and Optiver. So you could have 2 million shares but if no one wants to buy them then you have a problem . . ..
Seems like instead of paying traders the bonusesthey deserve, Optiver are choosing to throw money away to the lawyers.
Optiver’s experts have actually had since March 2009 to put together their expert reports – remember that there was a Preliminary Discovery ruling made against Tibra well before the current copyright case was launched:
https://www.comcourts.gov.au/file/Federal/P/NSD1116/2007/actions
There have been four affidavits lodged by Optiver in early October. Lay evidence was lodged in late April, so I can only assume these were the expert reports.
Agree with previous poster – if Optiver had a strong case, then I very much doubt it would take 19 months to construct it.
“Seems like instead of paying traders the bonuses they deserve, Optiver are choosing to throw money away to the lawyers.”
They’ve probably spent $4-$5m already on the case so far, and if they lose and have to pay Tibra’s costs as well, then here’s hoping they have a better result in 2010 than they did in 2009. I’d be seriously shat off if my bonus money was being pissed up the wall.
Would love to be a fly on the wall in either camp!
You like being pissed on?
Is it true that Dutch MMs pay big part of bonus based on seniority, heard from a junior trader that he made in millions and received less than 100k, senior traders employed since 4-5 years got nearly a million for donig nothing on their desks..They dont even know basics of Option theory..no mathematical background..no programming skilss….Is it fcking true ?
I am wondering how bright and young graduates work under these stupids and why company is paying them so much..Dont they know that even if they cut their bonuses, senior(illiterate) traders are not going to leave(No one is going to hire them)..if any..please shout !!
5;12pm that only happens at All Options International …..
Young bright graduates are a dime a dozen. Lose one and there are thousands more desperate to get in.
Loyalty is more valuable. Senior traders who have worked to build the firm and make it better over the years can be trusted and should be given rewards.
@ 6:08 pm
Dank voor je bijdrage, Allard.
Isn’t it possible to create a dutch section and an english section on this website?
getting crazy each morning by reading all the comments from US/Asia.
Why did the Dutch sail around the world, trading spices, gold, incense and silk?
To get away from their wives.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-csGDoSSZyc
i know you rats get the shits with us IB traders, but the fact is that you will be replaced by machines within 5 years, while there will always be a place for the prop trader. Take you away from the infrastructure and you are lost – not the slightest understanding of markets, all you know is 1 under / 1 over
your job as a prop trader will only last until you get caught short vol on the next large move.
Good luck trying to explain yourself to seventeen levels of ignorant management.
Tibra make no money. I used to work there. We were the masters of trading something, moving prices against and then getting out at theo or a de-scalp. And by the way, the kitchen is a piece of shite.
What is vol?
do tibra use an auto adjuster? take a certain % of credit out automatically to move ur sheets against?
i’d imagine that’s what timber hill do? with 3 ppl controlling every stock/index they trade in the asian office
“your job as a prop trader will only last until you get caught short vol on the next large move.”
look at the bigger picture pal – your industry (MM) is shrinking (both in terms of margins and participants) and traders will eventually be replaced by machines. You will be out of a job in 5 years
the irony of all this mid mkt trading is that it is you are helping the ones you hate, prop traders, get set at a better price and yet you guys make no money on the trade.
“Tibra make no money.”
Tibra made more than Optiver in 2009, that’s for sure!
not in asia…..
“not in asia…..”
Even if that’s true, does it even matter? The 23m EUR was a consolidated result, worldwide. Pretty sure Tibra made bucketloads more than that.
2010 will be interesting. I know of at least two MM shops that are in negative territory.
optiver asia pnl was $75 after revenue of $190
question is where did they lose it?
the usual. hookers, blow, etc.
IB guy is funny, shouldnt you be thanking the taxpayer for still haaving a job…I havent heard of one IB prop desk that didnt do their nuts in 2008, had you been a privately held company you’d be out of business
ur just jealous u don’t get to wear gold bull bear cufflinks to work.
jesus net als vroeger bij itc volendam , hoe is het met mijn ))))collega.s)))d steur en compaan uit elkaar zit justin er nog , gaat ook daar niet goed volgens mij , ben blij dat ik op tijd een andere core business heb gevonden
just read the history of Tibra-Optiver-IMC etc..Isnt Tibra the cream of all these firms..Educated, Intelligent people walked out leaving rubbish behind…
Steur?
Compaan?
who are they??
justin nowadays works for ABR
same comppany where ben blondel used to work
leaving rubbish behind? cream of the firms? big call considering how tibras hitter was up and running pretty much day 1…. back in those days it was all about how fast u were, positioning didn’t even really matter.
“big call considering how tibras hitter was up and running pretty much day 1”
Betfair should list an Optiver vs Tibra market (and a CFTC vs Optiver market). I’d love to take money from you monkeys, but I have a feeling I already do so on a daily basis.
ring, ring….er…hi….that wasy me in the screen…say, can we bust that 1 lot…..? I’m at my hard limit…..beeep, beeep, beeep….hello? hello??
shit. that phone call is coming out of my pnl.
Market making is fuked. I wish I never signed up at this place, the door is well and truly revolving!
The CFTC vs Optiver case has been delayed again. It has been stayed until January 19th 2011. Defendants must enter a plea on or before February 18th 2011.
Does anyone know why it keeps getting delayed? I think it’s the third or fourth time now …
because they are trying to settle it you moron
Can anyone tell me what they are earning after two years in MM? I have been here for two years and my base is still $85K and bonus only 20%. I think this is a joke for all the hours I have put in!
mmm just had a fatastic full english from the tibra canteen. 5 stars
well, good for you
Two years and you’re on a hundred grand? Look elsewhere buddy.
20% of what, PnL or base salary?
yeah man, I agree with @10:31!
the difficult market circumstances that everybody is facing right now ARE JUST FAKE
you deserve 200k. at least
what are we talking? Dollars, euros or pounds? I’m just curious because as a software developer for a market maker I earned way less than 100K in any of those currencies after two years. And lets face it, writing software is harder than trading 😛
200k.
Oh, irony – that was what I ment
duh
aussie dollars?
rupiah!
please refer to the monkey and the frog.
the 100k trader is the frog
I earn 2K euros a month and no bonus…am I the only one? 🙂
c’mon…no bullshit!
Does anyone there know about Nyenburgh ? Is that a good trading firm for juniors ?
to stay junior?
yeah!
What does it mean exactly ?
Do we have similar kind of foolish/uneducated senior traders there as we have in other “leading” market making firms ?
I think Flow and Nyenburgh are far better firms, doing serious trading, maing money and keeping distance from usual rubbish stuff: trading software/market manipulation/bankruptcy stuff..
mmm just had a fatastic full english from the tibra canteen.
FULL ENGLISH TEABAG.
giving or receiving the teabagging?
heard you tibra blokes like the odd teabag
preferred team building exercise
Yea Tibra are the biggest bunch of fags. When I was working there I was hit on by management more than once
Also why the fuck do Liquid Capital advertise for new blood every 3 months?
“Yea Tibra are the biggest bunch of fags. When I was working there I was hit on by management more than once”
Ha! By two different guys? You should name and shame!
You must give off a really gay vibe or something.
i just luuuuuv what you’ve done with your pricing sheets!
Oh, and that edge highlight colour is to die for!
who is the #4 guy here?
http://www.dalailamainaustralia.org/pages/?ParentPageID=3&PageID=4
“who is the #4 guy here?”
So hard to tell who is being sarcastic and who isn’t.
“who is the #4 guy here?”
His name is right there. Perhaps Optiver is looking for fight with Chinese authorities as well.
What is the chance of staying in one of those MM after starting as a junior for 6 months ? Are they firing most of them even if they are good ? Are they just rolling juniors to assist seniors ?
mate, why would anybody want to do that? Train somebody up for 6 months or a year, and as soon as he can function somewhat independently fire him? Assuming you are good and the company is not reorganising I would not worry about that.
I don’t know. I am just reading what is written in the comments
“back to spending hours looking through hundreds of resumes to pick 8 ‘rookies’, which we’ll just use them to clerk for us and then fire them. good times.”
@ insecure rookie
go get some proper training at a place like http://www.sig.com and then come back here……. all these fockers will be roling over each other in 24 months to offer you a ‘great’ job – up to you if you buy into the bullshit though!
rolling over each other in 24 months time? um, why? expecting margins to expand? volumes to pick up?
margins to pick up….unlikely
volumes to pick up….hopefully
Clearly you have no idea. I know two people who got fired after their 6 month training program. They are both switched on and had HD averages at uni. 12 months have passed and no one will take them on.
HD averages mean sweet f**k all in a market making role.
How much do senior MMs make?
True, but noone taking them is fcked. Clearly didn’t know wat they were in for
And what is with all the bullshit maths testing to get in? Everyone I have spoken to in MM says you dont have to be quick or good at maths at all to make the market. The systems do it for you these days. Is this true?
Yes its true, these senior guys are bald faced liars. Do not trust them. They will fuick u if they have the chance. Go try get a job at a bank. No ns
Did they fire the HR peeps at Alll Options yet?
Is that really a bad idea to join of those MMs ? Reading all the comments there, it sounds like there is nothing but misery for junior guys.
All is misery for the seniors too, but at least they can make themselves feel better by taking it out on the juniors.
the need for human traders or the amount of human traders that mms have will diminish over time… unfortunately the skills are pretty niche and not that transferable. i wouldn’t sign up now, u missed the gravy train.
to be honest you needed to get into the market making game 10-15 yrs ago, dont envy any young guys trying to start now and work their way up in a business thats dominated by technology
even 5 years ago wasn’t too bad, then along came tibra….
So true, grads starting now will go nowhere. After a couple years they will realise how little the pay is and worst of all they wont be able to get a job elsewhere. Poor bastards!
that’s if they last a couple of years…
Liquid Capital is so fffffuuuukkkkeeeddd!!!!
@ 1.08 am
Too much credit for Tibra
the frog bites back XD
None of the MMs is fair with grads ? Is there someone here who has ever worked for a MM, because there is no positive comments.
@ November 1st, 2010 at 5:13 am
That’s just the quarterly roll on their clerk position, standard practice mate.
Do you guys know that brok and mkt fees need to be substracted from mm PL and not added?
Do you think we are stupid ?
No, but considering the margin you require for trading, the doubt was understandable. Actually I am not targeting YOU but the whole profession of mm.
MMs that make the tightest market are the ones who get the best access to information, the best relationship with brokers and the best trading while their competitors are sitting there stagnating.
above poster has a point, how many of you guys know how much it costs u to execute a 1 lot in terms of your quoted spd?not many from what I can see with massive size trading near sheets on the broker mkts everyday!
if your competitor makes a market n units wide, your market should be n-2 wide.
Tibra is when n=1 or 2.
quarterly roll on their clerk position. are they really that bad?
“None of the MMs is fair with grads ? Is there someone here who has ever worked for a MM, because there is no positive comments.”
It’s quite simple. Grads a paid a very decent salary compared to the non-financial world. On top of that, they can get a bonus if they perform well. Don’t expect to be a millionair in 3 years though. Business is tough at the moment and the game is becoming more and more IT and algorithmic oriented. If you can program well, you might be suited for MM 3.0, but otherwise choose another profession. There is not much demand for trader-skills elsewhere, so it’s not a sensible first step in a career.
Are Nyenburgh and FlowTraders MM like Tibra, IMC, … or just simple prop trading firms ?
Nyenburgh and Flow don´t do derivatives
not options MM anyway
anyone know what ex traders after a few years do seeing as there is ‘not much demand for trader skills elsewhere’?
Liquid Capital seem to be advertising for grads again. What a joke! The revolving door is well and truly working.
http://www.seek.com.au/Job/graduate-trainee-traders-market-making/in/sydney-cbd-inner-west-eastern-suburbs/17793753
just a constant ad up it seems, they forgot to change the date on this one though…’mid september start’ nice one.
pavarotti asleep at the wheel.
No wonder they sacked you – it does not say September start. You are a half wit.
4:05 am
can I trade with you?
4:05am, you assume too much, and clearly lack attention to detail, are u fckng blind.
4:05am – You are probably the HR dumbfuk who posted the ad. Really, why would anyone want to work in HR? I suppose those that could only get into Arts at uni and not able to get a decent job anywhere
hey don’t be hating on HR. some of the best looking chicks work in HR.
You are obviously one of those MM geeks who struggle with the ladies. All HR chicks are stupid.
i didnt say they were smart.
now i need to get back to the Star Trek discussion forum now.
I agree with 6:25am. My ex was a stupid HR slut.
but was she hot?
Not really, but a massive slut which does count, offered a tight spread:)
“anyone know what ex traders after a few years do seeing as there is ‘not much demand for trader skills elsewhere’?”
Go to LinkedIn, look up some of the MM-firms and see where people go afterwards. The good ones probably end up at Carpe Diem Inc or Iwillneverhavetoworkanotherdayinmylife.com, a hot new start-up in Sillicon Valley.
Some will have to go to Canada though.
“anyone know what ex traders after a few years do seeing as there is ‘not much demand for trader skills elsewhere’?”
Nothing! Just surfing the net on platforms like this one and leave stupid comment every now and then. Great life!
“MMs that make the tightest market are the ones who get the best access to information, the best relationship with brokers and the best trading while their competitors are sitting there stagnating.”
Really? Apart from getting brokers richer, what is the point of having good info when eventually you trade at fair value. Giving tight mkts to brokers only give them a nasty habit of trading only at fair value, and you (and me) are the sucker who endorse all the risks. Maybe if you’re a religious guy, prayer may help.
Grads that join at 22-23 are passing up opportunities at big firms offering them professional training that will allow them to work in their industry for 45 years. MMs can use them for 5-6 years and then they will end up on the scrapheap. It is a silly decision that worked well in the past but will not work for grads starting now.
Vandaag in het FD de bevestiging dat All Options binnenkort de vloer van Beursplein 5 verlaat in het kader van de reorganisatie. In dit licht een leuke link (snel wezen voordat ie wordt verwijderd):
http://www.alloptions-international.com/news/maincontent/09/document/Banking%20Review%20article.pdf
http://www.fd.nl/artikel/20641308/all-options-beursvloer
“Grads that join at 22-23 are passing up opportunities at big firms offering them professional training ”
Maybe they have no other choice.
Hi
Could the guy quoting dozens and dozens of strategies on the OESX market (by 500) stop his useless and polluting game ?
Thanks
Hi,
Did you notice this assfuck? He is a fucking pain in the ass.
I consider complaining about him to Eurex surveillance.
Fucking holy shit
We already complained but the fritz from frankfurt are not doing their job.
You should try as well.
I see the strategy is causing some anger. That is often a good sign that the MM causing the anger is doing something right 😉
What do you mean?
It is better for the grads to join in IT or HR as they get access to the big bonuses but can have careers lasting 45 years.
Is that better to join a MM as a junior trader or to join a hedge fund as a junior fund manager ?
It is better to join Goldman Sachs as a partner.
man, this forum is fckn awesome
for fuck sake, we have told u enough. join as a junior now at a mm and u are wasting ur time..don’t listen at ur peril in three years when u get the arse and can’t get another job. now shut the fuck up grads. that’s all. or go join ur ‘hedge fund’. fucking whatever.
I think the question was fair. Some people voluntary join MM and do succeed. I do not think they are all just stupid desperate grads with no other choice.
What is your job guys ? Are you MM or not ?
@ anonymous 9:52 am
““anyone know what ex traders after a few years do seeing as there is ‘not much demand for trader skills elsewhere’?”
Go to LinkedIn, look up some of the MM-firms and see where people go afterwards. The good ones probably end up at Carpe Diem Inc or Iwillneverhavetoworkanotherdayinmylife.com, a hot new start-up in Sillicon Valley.
Some will have to go to Canada though.”
at least Canada can give me some breathing room, unlike the spreads I see on the screen…
Hey Jaap, hoe zit het eigenlijk met jouw Canada plannen??
alles is rond. ik moet alleen nog afscheid nemen van Nino… begin volgend jaar mag je mijn vliegtuig uitzwaaien. zeker nu de marge in AGN helemaal verdwenen is.
most ppl on here are mm….
in 10 years time the machines will rule everything…just like in Terminator 2
that ended well though right?
“most ppl on here are mm…”
So all the pessimistic comments are just to afraid juniors. They just do not want them to take their place.
Skynet has become self aware and is nuking my pnl.
“So all the pessimistic comments are just to afraid juniors. They just do not want them to take their place.”
yeh that’s it buddy, please feel free to sign up.
Whats all this? Fresh meat?
We need to tenderise this meat a bit. …
from the inside out.
The only people that can say they made it in market making are the founders of Tibra, and especially DB. All the rest are of you are losers that will sit behind their desks wishing there was something better
hey guys……..my security card doesn’t work….guys, anybody? I left my mug behind on my desk….. YO WHAT’S UP!?!
“The only people that can say they made it in market making are the founders of Tibra, and especially DB.”
Sure, like he’s the only millionaire in the business…
He was worth $40m AUD a year ago .. there are stacks of millionaire market makers, but not many with that kind of wealth.
The All Options founder has much more than that
optiver, imc , flow owners all worth tens off millions. That are just some dutch mm.
geeks will replace all senior market makers in less than 2 years.
Here’s a list of Dutch MM’s with 50million or more. They didn’t make it as fast as DB though
http://www.amsterdamtrader.com/2010/10/afs-to-pay-for-own-mistrade-finally.html#comment-5212
most senior market makers are geeks
Lol. DB may have been worth $40 mil on paper a year ago. Today he is worth half that (on paper), no one wants to buy his shares and he is on the run from the mafiosi in Tora Bora.
Bandaree worth $40m? Couldn’t have happened to nicer bloke
No one can AFFORD to buy his shares, but that doesn’t matter because they are not even up for sale in the first place.
40M, still look how many people are ahead of him on the BRW. To be in the game you have to be worth 100M+ these days. Grads start your own company or become big time property developers and you might be close to the sidelines one day
i would pay $40m – that was what he was worth a year ago, and the mkt cap of tibra is surely higher now. New market 60/70
You assholes i could lift DBs stock just by skipping my church donation this month.
So mm is dead for mm … it is better to do IT, who can believe that ?
So mm is dead for juniorsn… it is better to do IT, who can believe that ?
IT & HR? Why the fuk would you bother going into those fields. How about you grow some balls, take a risk and start your own business. For once in your miserable life you will be able to call the shots.
I agree. When I was 24 I started as a grad in MM. The head of trading said that by the time I was 30 I would be very rich. What a load of rubbish! I am now 31 and nowhere near being rich. Yes its good money but after living expenses, tax etc I am not rich at all. Is anyone else in the same boat here?
you are a moron if you believe anyone who tells you that you will be rich by a certain date.
“….boohoo, im not rich yet, woe is me…”
fark off. You make more money than 99% of the pissing population.
this is the most idiotic post to date.
you want to be really rich? go invent something like Facebook. Or go purchase a mine nobody will touch with $30m of other peoples’ money
and then flick it out for an obscene amount.
you just missed the cutoff for genY. maybe they should make an allowance for you to be an honorary member.
agreed – stop wingeing. Sounds pathetic
It depends what you mean by rich. For me 100K a year is rich.
For those people suggesting starting a new business, how easy is it to get an account with a clearer like Fortis or KBC? How much capital and what level of experience / track record?
What’s up with Optiver these days? A French broker mate says he doesn’t even speak to them on Eurostoxx50 anymore. When I was there we made sh#tloads. Are they really pissing off everyone in the Market even for dutchies?
100K/year, you loser. Go buy a shitty little house and pay off the mortgage over 30 years. Typical MM attitude
why is that a typical MM attitude? I don’t get it
Happy with a few hundred grand a year and not using your smarts to go for something bigger. 4:46am you are such a loser, it makes me sick.
like its as easy as simply punching some senior trader in the head and taking over his profitable book.
The only reason he’s getting paid is because he happened to join the ponzi scheme at an earlier stage, didn’t get fired, and now has a fat deal.
you my friend, make me sick.
You loser. Start your own company, any company, and you will make more than you ever could working behind a desk sucking co*k all day.
Think Donald Trump or Richard Branson you fag.
tell that to Alphabay, VanderMoolen, BNS, Intall, Fortis, AIG, Enron, Lehman Brothers, and Donald Trump!!! They will ALL disagree with you.
Surely Rijkman Groenink and Jan Bennink would have rather started their own company.
@ 5.31 am
A certain options trading manager at VDM made more money sucking RDD’s co*k than he did with his next company.
@10:31 Who is BNS and Intall?
Hoe is ‘t eigenlijk met onze oude vriend Onno? Wat doet is (naast af en toe hier wat posten)? Voor iemand met zoveel ervaring en kundigheid zouden de banen voor het oprapen moeten liggen.
tibra… widen your quotes or you will have real problems. your ruining the industry. Stop listening to your head of trader(who is a moron by tghe way) and just take a step back, wait for the interest come to you. Both the industry and your wallet will thank you. Especially in Australia.
: )
Just build a huge BTL property empire. House prices only go up!
Are Tibra really that bad at diming everybody on the screens/broker markets? I dont understand why they would want to be on every trade with no regard for risk vs edge, in a market like this that is surely the road to ruin. A broker once told me that you should be prepared to trade bigger size for less edge as the pnl booked would be the same as if you had traded less size for more edge…I told that particular moron to stick to broking.
To all the ppl complaining about Tibra making silly trades with no edge and other bullshit…
If these trades are so silly, why bother? That would just mean they’re bleeding money right? I don’t think they are.
Maybe it’s harder to admit that they beat you at your own game?
Optiver, IMC and Tibra’s ways of trading are very similar.
The edge is provided by the systems speed and the trader’s skills.
Just have a look at the net results of these companies and that’s it.
And Tibra is only 5 years old…
Some ppl should definitely stick to broking!
@ 6:38 PM
And your point is? Optiver’s 2009 net result dropped by 98% to “only” 6 million euros – and back then people were already complaining about the smaller spreads and lower turnover volumes. The scuttlebutt around Amsterdam is that they’re not doing better this year.
IMC is said to have even lost money (haven’t been able to verify that with official numbers yet), after overhead at least. Traditionally Optiver has been way more succesful year in year out than IMC (by a factor of 5-10, despite a similar size), and as you said they are similar, so 2009 and 2010 do not look very good for IMC.
Care to enlighten us with their net result and Tibra’s so we can properly evaluate your posting??
Problem is that they are only there in 500 lots and then are looking to hack it! Tibra are not making money, at least not in europe but are looking to gain market presence by churning out trades.
I’ve no idea where Optiver “lost” money in 2009 to be up such a small amount and I don’t really care about IMC not making money.
The idea is that Tibra beat them by far in 2009 with the bulk of money probably coming from Asia. Relatively speaking, they’ve done really well in very little time so let’s wait and see for 2010 results, I’m not an insider…
Optiver has high costs. A large drop in trading income (750m –> 250m) and a sharp increase in overhead, that’s what killed them in 2009. Expect the same for IMC, who have an operation of similar size (so one would expect a similar costs base) but probably substantially lower income. Doesn’t take a genius to figure out then they lost money. As for Tibra, their 2007/2008 earnings were 57m AUD, and 77m AUD in 2008/2009. Mind you, the last number includes the fall 2008 bonanza, so it would not be fair to compare it with Optiver’s result for 2009 and say Tibra did better. If anything, the very favourable trading conditions in their accounting period 2008/2009 (i.e. fall 2008) combined with the growth of their operations – yet profits only went up by 40% ?! – this to me suggests that Tibra was also starting to run out of steam towards the end of their accounting period. Not sure if Tibra have filed their 2009/2010 earnings yet. It will be interesting.
Yes you’re right. Tibra started running out of steam in mid 2008 and have basically been flatlining since while staff numbers and costs have trebled. 2009/10 will still show a reasonable profit but not looking good this year.
Good. I hope Tibra go down.
….on themselves
hahah. But they are better than Liquid Capital. Bunch of losers. Happy to be in a place with no job security whatsoever
Yeah but tibra has strong assets!
mr cotton for a start…
The 57m AUD and 77m AUD numbers for Tibra are after bonuses and expenses. So make sure you are comparing apples to apples with that 40% figure.
And Tibra does not have anywhere near the same overheads of Optiver. 220m EUR in operating costs is ridiculous for a market making firm. It is hard to compare Tibra to Optiver because of the different financial calendars, but I think Tibra will outperform Optiver in 2010.
Yea Optiver is fuked. I hate this place, especially Rob K. It just shows you only have to be able to calculate numbers to get ahead, you don’t have to be smart at all.
Rob K isn’t here anymore. Silly boy.
hey fellas, quit gossiping like little bitchez.
– I heard that something is trading at sheets in huge size with the brokers. Last one to participate is a prissy french trader!
AmsterdamTrader needs a “Like” button.
Not sure what you mean by prissy?
Talking about mr cotton…
but who is kinsey cotton?
Prissy
I’m sorry I was being redundant. Here is what I mean anyway:
http://www.statesman.com/multimedia/dynamic/00103/poodle800x600_103584c.jpg
(just imagine the nose stuck up a little more)
Rob K (eldoulis) walked away with 30+ and spent half his working
days near the beach . I think thats very smart .
Rob was just in the right place at the right time. Nice guy but no particular talent.
30+ in millions?
LOL @ 7:28
@5:14 I don’t know where you get the 220 mln from, but that definitely doesn’t match with what’s in their annual report (151.8 mln): http://www.amsterdamtrader.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Optiver-Holding-2009.pdf
Also, it’s a pity this is just a collection of random comments instead of a market place (contrary to what those people shouting ‘sold’ all the time might be thinking) because I’d definitely be Optiver bid in 2010 profit.
@10:34
No, 30+ engraved plaques. What the fuck do you think he meant?
Rob K did actually spend half his days at the beach. Which explains the lazy ass culture at Optiver Australia. A lot of complacent and mediocre traders who cannot figure their heads from their asses.
Everyone at Optiver Australia got paid for doing no work. The very fact that hungry companies like Tibra and eclipse options exist and are making money throws light on how wide the spreads were in Asia.
If the guys from Optiver Netherlands showed up in Asia a little earlier than they did. The party would have been over a long time ago.
I pity Rob K. He just got 30 mil. His 20 years younger junior Bhandari paid out more to himself in three years.
Stop gossiping you girls. Man up. Why don’t you put your real names to stand behind all this rumour and innuendo.
To the guy who asked before, you can find out how much Optiver or Tibra makes for FY10 by going to the ASIC website. Even though they are not listed public companies, they are bound to disclose their annual accounts to ASIC (since they are med to large size companies).
Good trades!
To John Gregs and everyone else,
The ASIC website will only give you filings for income from Australian companies/operations. It may be possible that other operations (e.g Kospi/Nikkei) are registered as different ltd’s or LLC’s in different countries.
Just a thought given tax regimes are better in other parts of Asia.
To the guy who posted at 1.24pm
Of course it will show the whole income as it is the parent entity
It also depends on the company’s policy on what % of profit to retain. Tibra retain 50% and payout dividends to shareholders taking advantage of Australian franken credit rules through which corporation tax is essentially claimed back by shareholders. Optiver generally retains a third (a third goes to partners and a third to employees), but in hard years have been known to pay more to the partners and traders and staff and retain very little or nothing, and thereby “waste” less in Dutch corporation tax.
The interesting number is the trading result after costs (i,e profit before bonuses, taxes and dividends are taken into account) but this is very difficult to glean from the annual returns.
so much misinformation on this site
rob k only got 30 mil? the correct answer is closer to 80 mln
the success of Tibra was due to a whole group of early founders, most of who want to keep a low profile. Bhandari is the only one who seeks the limelight, nominating himself for awards and rich lists.
there is a whole bunch of senior aussie optiver guys that have made close to 30mln.
11:17 that is not how optiver pays out its profits, 2/3 goes to share holders and 1/3 to the bonus pool with no set percentage for employees versus partners
11:21 – you are way off the mark if you think there is a “lazy ass culture” in optiver australia
1:06
Big deal.
Senior Aussie Liquid traders made that kinda money too.
John gregs where do u work?
Don’t get me wrong, Optiver has been hugely profitable through the years … but looking at objective facts about how much the company paid out in compensation [e.g. 140m gross in its best year 2008, across 500 employees including roundabout 200 traders], I find these statements about scores of traders / managers walking away with 30-80m to be quite laughable. Really.
Jan D why don’t you take a better look at the numbers of Optiver and see how much they’ve paid their traders .Then you will see that the 80 m figure is not so high . Also look at their 2009 figures and you will see that they’ve taken a hit topline of around 100m . That explains the bad result . I also think that to compare companies first youm have to look at their topline i.e. how much have they taken out of the markets .
Most people get rich from their shareholdings, not from their bonus. And much of it is paper wealth (think Tibra).
2008 bonuses were 94 million euros (this was their best year). Assuming all of that went to the traders, you’re talking around 500k on average per trader. In 2009 it drops to less than 100k on average per trader. For 2007 it was around 300k. Etc.
The key word is average. On a trading career of let’s say 10 years, in order to attain 80m, you need to pull in 8m on average, or 15 – 80 times the average pay (and let’s just ignore in income taxes). I’m not saying it does (did) not happen, I am questioning just how many achived this. You see, it’s evident that only a small percentage of the pool of traders can pull in 15 – 80 times the average. Has nothing to do with Optiver or bonuses, I believe it is called arithmetic 101 back in elementary school.
Another way of building a fortune is holding an equity stake in Optiver. Needless to say, the partners who were there from the start did very, very well (people like Kaemingk, Ooms, Dobber and Vlek). But few people who joined Optiver later on have such a substantial equity stake that would elevate them to such wealth. Again, only a handful of partners can have a 5-15% piece of the pie (and they certainly aren’t all Australian).
Trading companies should incorporate these simple calculations into the math tests. Obviously quite a few people on this blog wouldn’t pass!
Please read the report again before you insult people . The total bonus was 160+ instead of 94 . So normally the highest bonus will be between 5 and 10m . It is obvious that you’re not in the know .
@ 4.54 pm
Dude you so failed the math test! And thanks for proving my point.
Again, it is not being argued that no one at Optiver could have walked out with between 5 and 10m in any given year. What was counter argued against were statements that there are “a whole bunch” / “many” traders who must have done so (year after year no less) in order to arrive at the 30-80m figures that are being tossed around. Read CAREFULLY what I wrote. Reading is also taught in elementary school.
And while I am at in, I did read Optiver’s report (and years prior). A lot more carefully than you I might add. I refer to page 48/63, section 19, where the “profit sharing staff” (a.k.a. bonus pool) is specified: 94.3m. On top of the bonuses Optiver of course paid regular salaries (traders base salary, massive IT department, HR, legal, etc.) and related costs (social security, pensions). That’s quite a bit of money but it’s not part of the bonus pool. (And please don’t confuse the minority interests with the bonus pool, you’re smarter than that.)
The 2008 bonus pool is and was 94.3m – their biggest ever, best year ever, blablabla. To be divided amongst close to *200* traders. In absolute terms an impressive amount no doubt, on average not so much. Exactly where your golden rule (“so normally …”) fits in, I have no f%$ clue. So please explain why I am not in the know and what makes you the expert??
No reason to get rude . But if that is what you want fine . What you’re suggesting is a pay out ratio of 20% . That is not the case . I guess you know that much .
Bottom line you bitchy losers, unless you have an equity stake or are a senior trader (+8 years) you are nothing. You will never be wealthy and you can be chopped at any time. What a shitty life you live.
thank you for this very helpful comment . How interesting . . . .
I agree with 11:12. Working for the man is shit. I can’t believe they hired this French Fuk. He is such a cun*! Whoever does the hiring for LC is a complete idiot.
thanks 11:12 , should I top myself now, or should I wait till I see your Rolls Royce coming down the street so that I can throw myself under it?
I’m tired of my shitty life as a peasant, it would be such a privilege to be run down by such a luxurious automobile.
Must be nice knowing you can bid more for friends than us serfs. I bet you’re like, a total chick magnet too. Some people get all the breaks.
douche.
plenty of value add here…… let’s keep it constructive
OK, best advice for grads. If you are smart you will work for an IB. Not so smart then try Tibra, Optiver or IMC. If you are an idiot with no other options (and don’t want to get paid), then go LC.
@2:52:
that’s a typical post from a LC insider in my opinion..
wat do u mean?
but at least you’re true to yourself and your own skills
I mean that’s a comment from a constrained idiot…
shit, i just got hit on a one lot. time to hack.
dunno if it’s about skills, pretty sure it’s about who has the better systems.
impossible to say whose ‘traders’ are better. looking at the pnl of competing firms doesn’t really tell the story
+kudos to “Jan D.” for his contribution
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7644373/
sound like anyone you know?
great link
ha ha, zo herkenbaar…
“November 15th, 2010 at 2:52 am
OK, best advice for grads. If you are smart you will work for an IB. Not so smart then try Tibra, Optiver or IMC. If you are an idiot with no other options (and don’t want to get paid), then go LC.”
What’s the major difference between an IB and the other firms you named? Is an IB prop trading and the other firms just MM?
What IBs can you advise in Amsterdam?
Thanks.
@ 4.08
IB = insider trading
IB’s have structure. so you are looking at a promotion level of analyst, Associate, VP, MD so on and so forth.
trading wise, you are not looking to execute a trade till u probably become a VP.
you crunch numbers in an Excel sheet as an analyst, check the excel sheet as an associate.
At these MM firms, you are looking to trade withing the first 3 months of training.
IB to hedge funds moves are easier than MM to hedge fund moves. Part of that is coz as a MM for five years, your probably a millionaire before 30. Do you need to work for longer than that ?
Not to say one is good or better over the other, its what you are looking at ? structured rise or quick and early retirement.
Ha, it’s funny reading the Tibra founder(s) posting anonymously boasting that you’re nothing unless you have $80 million from a market making career!
at IBs you will learn about markets and risk
at MMs you will learn to follow the green lights around on your Orc screen
8:46.
LC, Optiver, Mako have some very intelligent desks where traders make decisions based on Excel sheets (markets and risk) not ORC screens.
Very covert and secretive desks.
Who uses ORC? Cavemen???
quick and early retirement at a mm? lol no chance anymore
Very secretive and covert, huh? I am over-f***-whelmed. What about the profits generated by them? Are they off-balance-sheet items or do they mingle secretively into the measly current performances?
Black Ops – Above Top Secret. Involves high frequency descalping
“Who uses ORC? Cavemen???”
so what is everyone using these days? F1 still required Orc, so does the Tibra system no?
Indeed it does. Funny coincidence that?
“Part of that is coz as a MM for five years, your probably a millionaire before 30”
really doubtful …
maybe a millionaire if u don’t spend a sent, save every bonus, and plan not to spend any money for the rest of your life.
“trading wise, you are not looking to execute a trade till u probably become a VP.
you crunch numbers in an Excel sheet as an analyst, check the excel sheet as an associate.
At these MM firms, you are looking to trade withing the first 3 months of training”
why would u be crunching numbers in an excel sheet as a trader? that makes no sense. you are correct if u are thinking about corporate finance/m&a/analyst roles.
at tibra/imc/optiver, yes within 3 months u will ‘trade’, but really, all u are doing is moving vol parameters and letting ur system do the rest. lc, prob not until a year.
and no, at a mm, u will not be a millionaire within 5 years,maybe there’s exceptions, and i’m sure it happened plenty in past years, but unlikely anymore.
”Part of that is coz as a MM for five years, your probably a millionaire before 30”.
This cannot be any further from the truth. If you want to be a millionaire in 5 years go into property or start your own business. Mate this isn’t the 90s anymore.
“why would u be crunching numbers in an excel sheet as a trader? that makes no sense. you are correct if u are thinking about corporate finance/m&a/analyst roles. ”
said like a true narrow-minded market maker who has never seen anything other than the green lights on his orc screen
they’re yellow thankyou very much.
Apparently bank traders don’t need any flashing lights to help them front run client flow.
What do they use instead, Hand signal? Codeword?
“Blue Horseshoe loves BHP downside”
At an IB or hedge fund you have a chance to trade something else than the listed plain vanilla stuff that’s quoted by MM. More thinking, less (re)acting.
At an IB you can gamble big time because the tax payer will clean up your mess if you fail, you just shrug it off and go over to the next IB. If you (by sheer luck) “succeed”, you can brag about your brilliant trading skills and get a nice and compeletely undeserved bonus.
@11:22
Are you judging them or complimenting them on this?
What trader would say no to a free put courtesy of the tax payers.
IB’s definitely have more “coporatocracy”.
The good traders from IB’s eventually end up setting up their own Hedge Funds.
those free puts from the tax payer you mentioned above – are they the same free puts that saved all the MM’s arses when the benelux govts bailed out Fortis? MMs are the same recipients of govt bailouts as bank traders – so best jump down off that high horse you are on
speaknig of fortis
im totally going to take a dump in the ivy pool. if u feel something soft tap u on the shoulder….dont turn around.
Re: MMs are the same recipients of govt bailouts as bank traders – so best jump down off that high horse you are on
i can nominate this for observation of the month, probably for the whole year ..
apples an oranges
what would have happened to MMs had Fortis failed like lehman?
a fire starts at lehman, it spreads to fortis, the benelux governments put out the fire, stopping the MMs from catching fire – and you think MMs are just as culpable as the banks?
im sure MMs posed great systemic risk, what with all their reckless, exchange traded, real-time margined vanilla derivatives positions.
what about mark to market bank accounting? the banks still havent marked their shit to real levels. bail out 2.0 on its way…..
i don’t think anyone is suggesting that MMs’ business activities caused GFC, nor that banks (banks IBs and consumer banks) were not part liable for it, just that without the subsequent bailouts that MMs using fortis would have been wiped out
to suggest MMs were ‘bailed out’ by taxpayers is an assault on common sense
and what about the MM’s that weren’t affiliated to Fortis?
I wish we had the power to blow up all the banks with our huge positions…
MMs are driven more by technology. Each MM has a sophisticated trading system (which by the way is ripping off the ORC licences).
You might as well put a robot in front of the computer as there is not much lateral thinking.
This is true, which explains the continued general reduction in a MM’s remuneration as discussed above. They are overpaid at 100k I feel.
In what way are they ripping off the Orc licences?
@ 12.18
spoken like a true manager
How much do Orc licences cost ?
2000 euros a month i think
Hearing whispers from Tibra that all is not well in MM land. And for once its not Fortis that is the problem…
Apparently their head chef was recalled by gordon ramsey to claridges. As a result the tibra canteen has lost one of its two michelin stars.
Tibra is going down baby!!!! Finally.
Great, and the best thing is that all their junior employees will end up working at call centres.
Danny’s call centre
plenty of disillusioned junior mm’s at the ivy pool bar last nite…..
but not a bad party apart from the obvious sausage fest it was always going to be. 70k budget from abn, nice one.
If the Euro goes down then Tibra goes down thanks to their well known Euribor “genius” trader who loves to short vol!!
C’mon Ireland, don’t take the bailout money. Let’s blow this baby up!!
any fights break out last night?
let me guess…..
“we had the best year ever”
“your size is my size”
“you are free money to me in the screen”
“i’m gonna make partner this year”
Danny is the man, and the other founders should be grateful to him. If it wasn’t for him they would still be working for the man like a bunch of muppets.
I copped a handjob from a market maker groupie.
i got a rimjob from one of the tibra founders
I smoked a dutchie with a dutchie.
(and I passed it on the left hand side )
i took a dump in one of the showers. take that justin hemmes, family money tosser.
i felched my co-manager on the bar while he recited our company’s 5 core values loudly to the croud.
If the Euro goes down then Tibra goes down thanks to their well known Euribor “genius” trader who loves to short vol!!
C’mon Ireland, don’t take the bailout money. Let’s blow this baby up!!
Optiver about to drop their case against Tibra. Statement will be published early next week.
@12:41. You are right, but in order to show their gratitude they ganged up and forced him out of his own company!
The number is out, All Options lost 30m in 2009. And AJ is investing his money in wood plantations and a portfolio of mortgages.
http://www.quotenet.nl/quote-500/allard-jakobs-blijkt-grote-teakhoutinvesteerder.php
The traders at AO really earned the big bucks 😉 Who in his right mind wants to work at that loser shop?
Anybody knows something about how healthy Optiver is at the moment? Hearing All options is bad, Tibra is bad. Is Optiver winning because they lose competition? Is TOM going to bring big money to Optiver?
Does the report also mention the loan from AJ to Egbert´s pathetic endeavour Alphabay?
Wat een verrassing … ze konden niet eens hun salarissen terugverdienen bij AO, stelletje kneuzen.
Voorspelling voor 2010: -60.
-60. That is quite a loss. But given the fact that AO was still pursuing their expansion strategy in 2009 and sinking 30 in the process one could draw the conclusion from their “retreat” (exchange floor, offices, products, staff size) this year that a bad, bad number for 2010 will be reported.
Should I apply for a junior trader position at All Options? What do they pay in terms of salary and bonus?
This team trading crap really works out well. Not for the employees but for AJ paying himself big dividends. Dear employees, that is true socialism. Hypocrite words about “we are one team, bla” and treating oneself very differently from the average worker.
Anybody knows something about how healthy Optiver is at the moment? Hearing All options is bad, Tibra is bad. Is Optiver winning because they lose competition? Is TOM going to bring big money to Optiverr?
Both Optiver and Tibra well in the black for 2010. TOM won’t be cashflow positive for another 12-18 months.
Please be a little bit more precise for “well in the black”.
All Options is well black and blue.
what color is liquid?
What happened to the AO Zug office? They set up up about 4 dozen trading desks and had like a handful of trader the last time I was there. Those megalomania fantasies certainly help making the OH explode in your face.
12:43: they are still at 10% capacity.
…help making the OH explode in your face.
what do you mean with OH??
“well in the black” means 50m-100m after costs as of mid September.
Neither company has lost money in the last two months. Optiver is doing just fine thank you, and “Tibra is bad” is typical AT drivel.
How do you know between 50m and 100m? Do you have a source or is it just speculation?
After costs as in trading costs or as in trading costs and all overhead costs?
All costs for mm’s were covered in the month of April.
October and November have been good volatility months to make money.
The above numbers seem reasonably true.
April? You’re definitely dreaming! May should have been good, but the rest, forget it.
50 to 100M – Optiver maybe, Tibra forget it.
Blind faith trainees…. still won’t listen, bunch of dumb cunts
12:41 – your quote that Danny is the man shows that you know little about the beginnings of Tibra. Itwas not his idea, he just happened to be unemployed when some others left Optiver/IMC to start a company
What a load of shit. He is the man and everyone knows it. You are probably one of the other founders that piggy backed off his vision and success. If it wasn’t for him you would still be earning peanuts working behind a desk like the female you are.
As usual, the truth is in the middle. Yes, Danny was unemployed when Tibra was conceived, but he was a huge influence in getting the company off the ground (as were the other founders – each had their role).
So it’s unfair to bag him out, and it’s also unfair to say it was all down to him.
No one should bag him out. Without him clearly the other founders would be nothing.
“Without him clearly the other founders would be nothing.”
As someone else has already said: spoken by someone that clearly knows nothing about the beginnings of Tibra.
so tell us how it actually happened then. How did Tibra come about? As little spin as possible pls
I dont care if Danny was unemployed or the worst trader from Optiver who was fired. Half the money in the company was his to start with. He got the co. working.
Each founder played his part monetarily and intellectually.
Great success story…!!!
FTD
FTT
“Each founder played his part monetarily and intellectually.
Great success story…!!! ”
Uhm , they stole the source code .
“Half the money in the company was his to start with”
Guess again, jackass!
“Uhm , they stole the source code”
Spoken by someone that clearly knows nothing about the substance of the case. Don’t believe the hype – unfortunately you just have to wait another year or so before the details can be made public.
Former Societe Generale SA trader Samarth Agrawal was found guilty of stealing trade secrets related to the bank’s high-speed computer trading software.
A federal court jury in New York today delivered the verdict at the end of a two-week trial. U.S. District Judge Jed S. Rakoff set Agrawal’s sentencing for Feb. 24.
Rakoff said after the verdict that, for sentencing, he will consider that Agrawal admitted during the trial that he committed a theft of trade secrets.
“I think he may be entitled to some of acceptance of responsibility,” Rakoff said. Sentencing guidelines provide for a minimum prison term of three years and 10 months and a maximum of four years and nine months.
Agrawal testified, under questioning by his own lawyer, Ivan Fisher, that he shared information about Societe Generale’s trading software with a Manhattan hedge fund, Tower Research Capital LLC, where he hoped to create a similar system.
Rakoff, who told lawyers he was “puzzled” by Agrawal’s self-incriminating testimony, said he assumed Fisher was using a “sympathy defense” on his client’s behalf.
Agrawal was convicted of theft of trade secrets and transporting stolen property in interstate commerce.
SocGen ‘Satisfied’
“We are satisfied with today’s guilty verdict,” Jim Galvin, a spokesman for Societe Generale, said in an e-mailed statement. “We brought this matter to the criminal authorities because Societe Generale is determined to protect its valuable intellectual property to the fullest extent of the law.”
During the trial, Agrawal told jurors that his superiors at Societe General encouraged him to work at home because spending too many nights and weekends in the office would raise “red flags” for company security. For that reason, he said, he printed copies of the computer codes in June 2009 to study at home.
Agrawal was hired in 2007 in New York by the Paris-based bank to be a quantitative analyst in the high-frequency trading group. He was promoted to trader and given access to the company’s high-frequency trading software in April 2009, according to prosecutors.
Later, during 10 to 12 meetings with Tower executives, Agrawal said, he shared some aspects of a Societe Generale trading program called DQS, for “distributed quotation system.” Agrawal said he used Societe Generale’s codes because he wanted the job at Tower and because he would have had to build a similar system once hired by the hedge fund.
I wonder how many high speed VWAP chasers who defected from european banks to go work for private trading houses stole code from their former employers…?
Danny did indeed play a big role in that first year setting up the business and driving it forward. Tim’s vision was also instrumental in bringing together Strategy, IT, Trading, Quant. In all fairness the other five traders (with perhaps the exception of Clint) are average at best and essentially were in the right place at the right time.
Regardless of the legalities currently being fought over, it is well known that several high ranking Optiver IT people were induced to join the start up (Begg, Nikolas, King et al) and that their systems were at very least as competitive with Optiver/IMC within 3 months of start up, if not better. A feat that no other entrant was able to achieve before or after.
They also had some great moments of luck in that first year of trading, specifically in Asian warrants markets.
But above all else, from the start it was a set up to grow as fast as possible. People became empire builders. The mantra was that the founders were guys who had been fucked by management at their previous employers and had built a company that would operate differently and so attract the best talent from the competition. FTD. Maybe they even believed it. But a lot of good people joined, both in Aus and over in Europe, and it was these people whose hardwork and skill essential built the firm. These guys have in some cases done well out of Tibra, in other cases not so well. All the well meaning ideals of spreading share ownership etc went out of the window, and the founders consolidated their positions.
Danny and Tim did make a positive difference, but it’s a bit rich for the other founders (especially those from IMC) to believe that they played their part and made their contribution as their reward has been far far greater than their talent deserved. It basically came down to luck, and good luck to them for that!
They were absolutely getting fckd ny management so good on them. I remember in 0d and 0f starting salary for imc was 40k, second year 50k all the while making millions for the company. Ftd indeed at the time.
That shd read 05 and 06.
That shd read 05 and 06, pre tibra
if it wasn’t danny’s idea, then whose idea was it? danny incorporated the company, was the first and sole director for about 3 months until another two got directorships
Danny was fired from Optiver, the other two directors resigned of their own volition. Do you think it would have been wise to have them as directors while they were still employed there?
Idiot.
tibra was the one that got them to bump grads up to 100k.
imc put them up to 70k at first, but when another couple of ppl bailed, matched tibra. liquid still at 80k inc super i believe. others still around that 100k mark.
“All the well meaning ideals of spreading share ownership etc went out of the window, and the founders consolidated their positions.”
Could you explain that a little more ?
Does that imply the founders/equity holders did not take a big a cut out of the bonus pool ?
so whose idea was it?
I can’t believe these bloody women get hired here at SIG. Does anyone else have a problem with this? They don’t know the difference between a put and a call! A colleague at LC said they just hired a female on the Aussie desk. Bloody hell what a joke (apparently she is old and ugly also). Why can’t they just hire hot females and put them in HR where they belong.
Does Optiver and IMC have many women on board?
whoa, that’s aggressive. the girl at lc is ex imc, ex merrill, a good trader, and would teach u a thing or two pal.
im sure they couldn’t care less as long as she’s making cash, which i hear she is. so good on her, in the male dominated world that is trading.
no female traders at imc, dunno about optiver. how many female traders are there at sig?
lol. I agree she ain’t pretty. Looks a bit like a bloke. But seems to be doing well so far.
one of the chicks at sig wasn’t half bad i recall?
One is, though a bit straighty 180
Doubt it. The one at Liquid might. How old is she?
early 30’s. 31, maybe 32. funny what’s considered ‘old’
any decent chicks at the mm firms in oz? hr girls?
32?? What a loser. If I am still here working when I am 32 I will be so fucking depressed.
get the prozac ready then….
What’s the average age on this board and at what age did you guys start working?
“What’s the average age on this board and at what age did you guys start working?”
Sounds like 12 most of the time .
On average started at 20, all loaded and retired at 25……
25? You’re an idiot if it doesn’t take 3 years of trading in order to retire.
Females should get back to cooking and cleaning where they belong instead of causing trouble in HR.
my age is 33, started at 22, and (most likely) I will not be able to retire at age 40.
You poor bastard. If only you had some balls like DB. Maybe you should go hook up with the ugly chick on the LC Aussie desk. You can both live pathetic lives for the next 10 years together.
“anonymous
November 22nd, 2010 at 8:54 pm
my age is 33, started at 22, and (most likely) I will not be able to retire at age 40.”
What’s your retirement goal? Moneywise. Maybe it’s just more prestigious than that of 8:21 and 8:28.
“If only you had some balls like DB.”
You’re right – it took balls to get fired like that. All those other eunuchs had to resign from their million dollar a year jobs.
fuck all you miserable cunts. liquid has a secret weapon non of you can match.
i got two words – business casual.
at least u look good making no money
liquid has another secret weapon non of you can match
i got two words – the DOCTOR
which is?
what a great trading day…..
Am I the only one here to see a resemblance between Mr Bandhari and Paul Jr from American Chopper??
Yes.
Yes you are.
Does anyone know if Tibra are hiring early next year?
my age is 33, started at 22, and (most likely) I will not be able to retire at age 40.
Oke your age is 33. Started at 22. How much money did you make in those 11 years approximately? And is the amount of earnings going down a lot last years?
@9:10: yes, lawyers mostly
Good question 10:42. More importantly, would you reccommend juniors starting out now to go down the same path?
In those 11 years he made fuck all. Look at the Tibra founders. The reason they started their own firm is because they wanted something more, any were not happy being a bunch of robots. You poor market makers, learn from DB and other founders. The only way to really be satisfied and make a lot of money in this game is to be the boss. Pity 95% of you losers never will.
Yeah indeed. But whats the future for the market maker that starts this year or next year. Is there a future? or is everybody talking each other down here and is there still a lot to earn and do for market makers in the upcoming 10 years?
Cheers
Unfortunately, not everyone can be the boss.
Yes, let’s look at the Tibra founders.
DB was fired. The IMC guys were earning $50K a year and so must have been leant their stakes. And the Optiver guys who did quit their jobs brought the “code”. All nothing to lose, or so they thought.
Should I apply with AO? Is it a good place to work?
market-making is one big alligator-spread as of late.
@ 3:47
AO is going down, why would you even want to work for them? If you wanna learn how to calculate openings then go for it mate haha. They has ONE nice year a few years back and the truth is a lot of the traders there are waiting for another big winning trade… but who knows, it might never come. Also all the decisions are made by Allard and it pisses off some traders. Also, now that they’re cutting back on overhead they’re probably gonna fire more traders…
So if I were you I wouldn’t apply to AO… You’d be better off in a bank’s trading room… that’s where the big bucks are made dude!
@3:47
“You’d be better off in a bank’s trading room… that’s where the big bucks are made dude”!”
Yeah, but after how many years do you start making the big bucks? And what do you call “big bucks”?
And what do you really do in a bank’s trading room? Not real trading is it? You just execute your client’s orders right? Or is prop trading at a bankl a real option?
The only real trading is trading for yourself, using your own capital. Not executing client orders like a puppet or just monitoring technology (market making).
You probably didn’t even know there is an office of futures traders (4 people) near the Establshment, each averaged $600K/month last year. They are the true traders and don’t have to listen to anyone or take bullshit orders.
Curious to know why everyone assumes Tibra stole the code. Is everyone just going off what Optiver said? Why do you believe them?
The FACT is that Tibra became super competitive in all markets within two months of setting up.
“You probably didn’t even know there is an office of futures traders (4 people) near the Establshment, each averaged $600K/month last year. They are the true traders and don’t have to listen to anyone or take bullshit orders.”
bullshit
name names and show proof or fark off
successful people usually dont go around announcing that they have hit 600k for the year .. unless they have small pen*s syndrome ..
Return is only one side of the story douchebag.
I could average a fuckload per month too if i bought a stack of s&p futures at the start of july.
With my own money.
On my laptop.
Sitting in the Establishment bar.
a room of four futures punters punching out close to $30m is either a very successful bunch of guys or a massive lie – i am leaning towards the latter
“The FACT is that Tibra became super competitive in all markets within two months of setting up.”
Wouldn’t they have been super competitive on Day 1 if they stole it?
Tibra Trading Pty Ltd (aka FTD) was registered on the 16th of January 2006, so the setting up period is clearly much longer than two months. You’re also not taking into account that the IT employees (King, Nickolas and Begg) resigned around May or June. Sounds quite plausible to me to write an Electronic Eye in six months.
Can anyone explain me how to make money in this f*** OESX market ???
Everything trades flat, no margin, nothing + Eurex fees, cost of the lines, …
10:30…
You got to take a position.
yes, I’m afraid so
MARKETMAKING = DEAD
I don’t know why you market-makers keep on trading big sizes without margins, I would be very surprised if you told me you manage to earn money with that.
there are to much of us,
thanx to AO that hired every single graduate.
so what’s going to happen to them now?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDA4lcw8k1g
@6:05 pm
“Yeah, but after how many years do you start making the big bucks? And what do you call “big bucks”?
And what do you really do in a bank’s trading room? Not real trading is it? You just execute your client’s orders right? Or is prop trading at a bankl a real option?
”
All depends on you and the bank you’re working for. I know it’s probably not the answer you’re looking for but salaries and bonuses vary widely from one trader to another and from one company to another…
And off course you can do prop trading at banks. Think Goldman Sachs or BoA… Also, ever heard of Jérome Kerviel at Société Générale??! Although it is true that he wasn’t really supposed to do prop trading it was “allowed”…
Also, you talk about applying to AO which is a market maker… so if you wanna do prop trading that’s not the place to go
with all the fighting between bankers and market makers it’s time to make a video derived from this one…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROlDmux7Tk4
that video is the most retarded shit ive ever seen.
isn’t it just posible for some companies to switch of their systems and go bankrupt for sake of themselves and the rest of the market?!
I mean who are you kidding anyway?
when you’re working for All Options for example you’ll nog get a bonus this year (AGAIN!).
“You probably didn’t even know there is an office of futures traders (4 people) near the Establshment, each averaged $600K/month last year. They are the true traders and don’t have to listen to anyone or take bullshit orders.”
I know who you are talking about 1:38am. They started early last year and are raking it in. I know one of the guys, he is only 27. He even had a million dollar day this year and he is on a 90% split. He is definitely living the dream.
Yea two of them came from Alion Futures and the other two from HK. I wouldn’t say they ave $600K/month each but Sav (the 27 year old) made about $2M last year and he usually only trades about 4 hours/day.
so what’s their secret?
The secret is they don’t have to listen to some fuckwit boss like at LC and they know they can make money for the rest of their lives. Not like here where if you get booted its game over.
I usually call it a day at noon, or when I’m up more than 2 million for the day, whichever of the two comes first.
True, Sev was one of our best traders, but I resent being called a “fuckwit boss”.
Hey Sev,
are you at least married, so you lose 40% on taxes and another 50% of the remaining 60% to your wife when (not if) she leaves you?
12:07: Interesting … the guys at Optiver told me the same thing (and made fun of their colleagues with ball and chain).
why is it okay to discuss Sev and not Erik Baanstra of Tibra?
What is there to talk about Baantje ?
the guy was fast as hell on the trading-floor but how is he doing nowaday’s?
Erik’s a good guy.
Tibra co-sponsor this site so anything negative about them is moderated.
“anything negative about them is moderated.”
Yet there are still dozens of comments about Tibra stealing code? I don’t think it’s sanitised.
really jack is on tibra’s payrolls ? i wonder if this’ll see the daylight tomorrow ?
ARE TIBRA HIRING GRADS NEXT MONTH?
are Tibra still in business??
Yes they are. They now have a new entry test for prospective candidates.
It involves 2 metres of hose and a golf ball….
…followed by something to do with a chrome bumper
insiders have been quoted as saying that it sucks.
whoa, so anyone know how exactly is this new entry test of tibra?
its the same shit as always. 80 questions in 8 minutes with minor alterations in time and/or amount. They made it online now afaik so that HR isnt so swamped with paperwork and can spend more time on making sure the sushi arrives on time on fridays
Anyone, how is the 40K starting salary for the Junior Trader position , provided by All Options according to this add : “Also on top of your yearly base salary of approximately 40K we offer a significant bonus opportunity” ,http://www.spotajob.nl/jobdetails.jsp?ret=list%3D0&j=1890 ), compared to its competitors (IMC, Optiver, Tibra) ?
Thank you
some average ability grads will get their geeky friends to take the test for them, fraudulently passing the test. Then, as they are not geeks they will be more likely to charm the HR whores in interview.
80 questions in 8 minutes? You are kiddin me….
Did they steal the feckin’ test off Optiver too? FFS.
bullshit 80 questions, 72/9 = ? questions like these..dont worry
indeed bullshit because nowadays a mmaker has software computing everything and if it is good software does everything automatically. A mmaker is an operator not a rocket scientist. They should learn how to operate a pc.
So true. Unless you are at Liquid where the software/technology is complete shit you don’t have to use your brain at all. It actually would be funny if Tibra gets flushed down the toilet. All the junior market makers will most probably end up in call centres. Everyone knows the only reason they get paid a few hundred grand/year is because they are not smart enough to start their own firms and start earning millions/year. If it was a fair system they all should earn a % of how much they make their boss.
wake up and smell the roses. Life ain’t fair. Why don’t you go over to your boss and thank him for giving you a job and paying you well above average and stop being such a childish ingrate
Well above average? You clearly have no idea. I have a mate selling Ebooks making $80,000/month. I also have another mate at a US investment bank. He is only an Operator and is on $280K base as a VP. His bonus is usually 100%-200% of base also. I bring in more money than him. Fuk my boss, I should do a DB and steal all the codes I can get. Pity the codes & systems are shithouse slow here.
this reminds me of small penis syndrome
Maybe you should just look for another job instead of whinging all the time. Or have you been declined at every attempt so far?
12:47
that’s way harsh. Liquid does have automated systems.
when you havent moved the mouse for a while the screensaver pops up for you automatically.
so much disinformation on this site.
“Well above average? You clearly have no idea. ”
whatever
http://www.livingin-australia.com/salaries-australia/
You loser 6.12am. Thats why I am in the Young BRW and you will be sucking cock for the next 20 years. Loser.
6:52
Is that you, Ron Burgandy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcech3F-FvI
@ 8.47PM . the test isnt difficult but its not 72/9 . Its more like 52.8/12.
“Anyone, how is the 40K starting salary for the Junior Trader position , provided by All Options according to this add ”
I think Optiver is paying 50K and Tibra even more. Perhaps AO has a better bonus outlook 😉
40k is shit. rabobank pays more. optiver and tibra pay 70k euro base.
ur seriously considering working for all options?
why not? i looked at the all options website and they say they are a leading market making firm.
Let’s apply some logic to this:
Allard Jacobs said Market Making = Dead
Therefore if AO = Leading Market Making Firm
Then AO = The most Dead Firm
So yes, it must be true that AO is a leading market making firm.
a lot of spilled money for ‘operators’ who are staring at a screen of an AUTOMATIC system. Starting salary + bonus if you make money. As if the ‘operator’ is making the money. He just starts has pc if it is not already auto started, hit the button start trading and watches for 8.5 hours how his system win/loose money. Sick industry.
how bout the american firm jane street?
started by disgruntled ex-SIG traders, heard guite gud things abt it ..
learn OCAML first
whats the bonus structure like at SIG? ive heard talk that less than 13% of their profits went into the bonus pool. that would explain the use of the word “disgruntled”.
SIG & Timber dont pay their traders well as its their ‘system’ that makes the money…fair dues to those guys for giving them the finger and making their own way, respect
“If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.” Very true in the case of SIG & Timber Hill. A trader’s bonus at Timber is around 3 months of salary … not worthy being called a bonus. SIG is not much better.
Does Nyenburgh pay well ?
But again fair dues to SIG & Timber, it IS their system that does the work en it is Timbers brokerage that brings the flow to the traders and it IS a well known strategy thought up by somebody else that the traders execute. So why pay big bonusses?
You go to SIG to learn about the basics of the strategies (they won’t teach you the details) and then move on to another firm which doesn’t have the time to train trainees the basics and get more responsibility. Or alternatively start your own firm, but that’s probably not very wise after a few years at SIG or Timber since you basically won’t have a clue about how real life works.
Don’t bother with Nyenburgh. Does the fact that several former employees sued the company (bonuses) set off any alarm bells? Not so clever traders (most of them anyway), management looks after themselves very well and they’ve had nasty costly issues with non-trading related stuff (Eastern European real estate investments) which is a tell-tale sign of poor management. Two friends of mine work there, all they do is complain about their bosses and coworkers.
What a joke that management used that company to speculate in the middle of the real estate bubble. Bad judgement to believe in that over hyped trash and bad management to diversify from trading to real estate.
they have a office in Estonia, is that the reason they got attracted to other real estate there in East Europe ..
SIG did something similar, having too much cash and low payout to staff, they decided that they want to be PE, VC, IB, S&T, Research, funding external trading strategies, probably more .. but after the bubble burst, they came back to senses .. not unexpected, given most management at top starts to loose touch with ground realities .. Lehman and VDM being good examples of worst case scenarios ..
they got suckered in by former aot managers sasker de boer & mariel wiegmans who all of a sudden had become experts at the real estate markets of estonia, latvia, rumania, poland you name it! (maybe as part of renting former aot office space, they also had to take over sasker & mariel?). company is called emprin (emprin.nl). a substantial amount of money went mysteriously “missing” that nyenburgh then had to pay for in 2008-2009. probably BORAT would have managed it better.
Hi, I am a female who is about to graduate from Commerce. I am interested in trading and looking at market making as an option. Could anyone, preferably a female with years of experience, give me any advice before I start applying to various firms?
Expect a very masculine culture, you need to be able to stand your ground. If you act like one of the boys you will do best. Trading firms are meritocracies, if you perform well nobody will care if you are male or female. If you are a commerce graduate you might have a problem, MM typically hire grads with a more math oriented background.
depending on the firm obv, but some MMs dont give 2 shits about your background. I know people with eng. literature backgrounds making amrkets
If you are no good at doing simple maths questions quickly for 8 minutes then you are wasting your time.
it doesn’t matter what you studied… i know couple of excellent traders with history major.. if you’re ambitious and motivated, go for it.
True, i know a extremely good trader with no education at all. (MNA, Mavo-niet-afgemaakt) and he still up to this day beats all the university grads with fancy titles in math and physics. But nobody would hire him anymore nowadays if he was young again and applying for a trading job.
Een vrouw met jaren ervaring in dit vak? Ik denk dat er geen reacties komen.
Dutch to English translation
A woman with years of experience in this field? I think there are no comments.
optiver doesnt have woman traders that i know of .. having said that, there is no discrimination to women trainee traders applying ..
Howabout Liquid Capital or Tibra?One of the posts mentions there is a female trader on the Aussie desk at Liquid Capital. If she is viewing this site her comments would be much appreciated.
how about someone who starts trading during middle age?
Do these people exist?
Well the one on the LC Aussie desk is mid 30s. But she is extremely ugly. Don’t know how she got hired. I think she got fired from her past employer at an IB.
Yeah but she didn’t start trading in her mid 30s, or did she?
I like to know the answer to the question above as well. I am 28 and thinking of applying for a trader/MM job. If I pass the test do I stand a chance between younger candidates?
With an attitude like that, you have no chance mate. Trading is a dog eat dog world and if you start by saying “do I stand a chance”, you stand no chance.
Now go get’em, Tiger, and don’t forget your sandwhich
I do not agree at all. I do not see you as competitors but rather as colleagues who also want to make money. There is enough for everybody. As I once said “It is so easy to make money. You just have to pick it up”. Just make sure your back does not start to hurt…
Pity management just see you all as a bunch of puppets, not giving a shit if they fire you or not. I wish I had the skills of DB so I could really be in the game.
There seems to be a poster who continually boasts about the qualities/ prowess of DB. Surely it is DB himself?
No, it is one of the co-founders who hung on to his coat tails.
Yea lucky bastards. Right place at the right time. Can’t believe they screwed him over in the end. If it wasn’t for him they would all just be traders sucking cock all day. Just like the old chick on the Aussie LC desk.
So true. I wish one of the senior traders here had the balls to do something like that.
I think people are tiring of the one man bhandari fan club.
senior traders where? Liquid? Oh dear.
DB with his team achieved something which hasnt happened as much in European/Asian geography .. there are plenty of american mm/high freq .. but only few newcomers over this side of pond, like tibra/AO/flow .. i really see no reason why people shouldnt admire his achievement ..
it is either DB himself or someone that is quite distant and has never met him. it would definately not be someone who has worked with him
And why is that? Yes we all know he has a reputation as a terrible trader. But who cares, he is the one who made it above and beyond all of us. A true entrepreneur. Now he cantake 15% of all future earnings while laying on the beach all day. Well done Danny.
“terrible trader” I think is a bit far from the truth. I would say “large risk appetite”.
Or ”Book Cooker”
tibra has no female traders in europe afaik.
I would still say ‘terrible trader’ if I were you.
Yea but you don’t have to be a good trader to be a good market maker, everone knows this. Most market makers don’t know anything about the market and could never ever trader prop. The true traders are those that trade prop at the banks and at prop firms.
@ 9.43am They used to have one, just like they used to have a fairly decent cash team in Europe, until half of them resigned en masse two weeks ago
True traders are the ones that trade for themselves, not for firms. Trading with other people’s money can’t hurt you.
@11:55 Why did the Tibra guys resign en masse? No bonus expectation this year (thanks to the derivatives gamblers)? Where are they heading to?
@12.08pm Truth is that cash team wasnt doing much anyway and waited till they got their bonus and left. I expect more people (not limited to traders but also other staff) to leave Tibra because the bonus pool has dried up. What is the incentive if you know that that bonus pool is poor and most if not all will go to the founders and shareholders….at least it was good run….
how is he a true entrepreneur? entrepreneurs come up with ideas and tibra was not his idea, he jumped in with others that had the idea and has enjoyed a high profile unlike the others who shun the limelight
@1:11 Smart move. Leave the big overhead to the founders and see how they can amortize it against their stake.
one of the tibra cash team has changed his profile on linkedin to gardening leave?
To all you wining trainee pansies out there, you need to get a life and some dimitrification …. I bet all your tough bosses have allready done it !!
http://www.dimitrithelover.com/animation/worship.htm
The cash team guys were all good traders. It will be a loss for them. They have been pushing out good people while the greedy idiot founders and their sycophants are staying put and running it into the ground.
i need info on the Smit brothers Rick and Peterpaul /VDM
who knows anything?
What do you want to know about the Smit brothers?
any info you might have
i’ve read some comments about them in the alphabay article and some of them were not positive
Erik Drent
September 15th, 2010 at 6:32 am
Vertrouw nooit Rick Smit of z’n broer Peter-Paul.
Peter Paul wordt volgens mij nog steeds gezocht door de Spaanse Guardia Civil.
rick is both useless and clueless, but dont bend down .. he wouldnt miss the opportunity ..
To the guy who’s saying that Danny is a big risk taker, can you elaborate on this?
During his Optiver years? Tibra years?
Playing around with the Deltas??
Or are you just guessing?
Optiver years. I imagine he has probably changed his style at Tibra with a big chunk of his personal wealth at stake.
He ran big positions in the HK stox, and then on the Oz stox it was a Macquarie Bank position that eventually brought him undone.
is there an assumption being made here that big risk = poor trading? Big risk obviously means higher P&L volatility, and with that will undoubtedly come the large drawdowns. But if he had big wins too, and in aggregate those big wins were larger than the big losses, then isn’t this good trading? Having one large draw down does not in itself mean he was a bad trader…..
He was short vol, and marked everything 20 ticks below market.
He was quoting too tight for an illiquid market and got lifted by every other broker/prop/market maker. He didn’t know when to back off.
The money he made was from the natural retail interest in the products he was trading. Not from exceptional performance.
A good trader should know when to be aggressive and when to back off. He lacked the second aspect.
Classic martingale play, when you lose double up.
However he would have kept his job if he got along with certain people a bit better. That being said there would have been no Tibra today if he did.
Exactly, and he still would have been a typical loser trader at Optiver, just part of the crowd only earning a couple 100K. Not starting something where he will now be remembered for years to come. As well as earning shitloads more than any Optiver trader for the next 20 years (assuming Tibra dont go down for the obvious theft etc) simply by sitting on his ass.
“is there an assumption being made here that big risk = poor trading?”
yes
We need another topic .Enough has been said about this sorry thief .
anonymous
December 9th, 2010 at 11:36 pm
rick is both useless and clueless, but dont bend down .. he wouldnt miss the opportunity ..
thanks for your comment!
i was asked to invest but i think its wise not to…
does anyone have info on peterpaul both in spain and nl.?
erik drent perhaps who commented on sept 15th 6:32 am with art. bonuses at bankrupt VDM.
hey 7:56, he would not be a typical loser trader at optiver because i heard that he was sacked in 2005. tibra would have got going without him, word is that tibra was the brainchild of tom berry and glen williams. i also beieve that you are DB
Wie is de mol 2011?
TIM Berry. Yes he and Glen were certainly the brains behind it. The IMC guys were the “Brawn”. None of them had any money to their name so the question is where they got start up funds from? Danny certainly didnt have a spare 5 million from his Optiver bonuses.
@ 8.59am
Invest in what? Alphabay 2??
“is there an assumption being made here that big risk = poor trading?
yes”
why???
nothing wrong with risk, as long as it is backed up with long term (and perhaps risk adjusted) positive P&L
man up, you little girl
@ 11.47 this is exactly the kind of recklessness I want to wipe out!
big risk has nothing to do with the size of your bet .
Not? So if I put all my money on a bet with a nice risk/reward that is not more risk then putting half of my capital in that bet? I think you have to be a bit of a gambler to do so.
Tim and Glen, fark off. Your better off saying it was the then 24 year old Christian King. Basically it was all DB. Are you telling me the 24 year old actually contributed anything? Apart from obviously helping with the stealing of the codes. He was clearly in the right place at the right time. But good luck to him. He is driving a Ferrari and I am not.
How could CK help steal the codes? You is stoopid, fool.
“Basically it was all DB.”
Dear Mrs Bhandari,
I’m sure you are very proud of your son, but the good folk here are tiring of your comments.
Yours faithfully,
Anonymous
how could anybody say with conviction of how much of Tibra is of DB’s direct involvement .. just look at the cash he generated for himself, compare it with someother people in business/tibra and make a reasonable guess for yourself .. even if the cash is not actual indicator of his input, well thats the final output of the story .. unless somebody has actual facts, there really is no point in debating DB’s greatness any further ..
“there really is no point in debating DB’s greatness any further ..”
Amen and hallelujah.
The current wealth of the Tibra founders is directly correlated to their shareholding which is more or less directly correlated to how much capital they contributed at the beginning. All of this info is available from ASIC but it seems most people here would rather speculate wildly than get the actual facts.
if u have the info, just paste it here and close the case .. whats the point of pointing it out and not just writing it here ..
The point is that you have to pay to get the information. Their financial report was lodged a couple of weeks ago. They had a pretty good year. Funny seeing everyone talk about how they are going out of business or not making any money. So many people on this site talking complete crap.
okay so if u paid and u want to be selfish in not sharing it, thats fine .. u can get the fk out and let us quabble ..
u guys are all pathetic. just blow the man and get it over with.
Here are the facts – from someone having worked in the market making business;
1. Tibra did not steal the code. They basically added on to what was already on ORC (or fixed bugs in the ORC system) – this is similiar to what Optiver did.
2. Timberland has the fastest system.
3. Tibra are not currently making $$ – that’s why people are leaving . Watch the press on some more senior people leaving.
4. The main contributors to the set up of Tibra were mainly DB, Tim Berry and Glenn Williamson. DB is seen as the public face of Tibra – a role he relishes but do not forget the role that TB and GW played. Both were instrumental.
5. GW is very unique in that he was both a trader and developer. TB was the brains behidn the strategies.
6. Out of all the intial founders, Clint Maddock is the best trader by far.
7. The shareholding that the founders of Tibra and subsequent shareholders is not worth much if there is liquidity in the market and if the company is not making $$, then it does not have enough $$ to buy back the shares.
Peace 🙂
“u guys are all pathetic. just blow the man and get it over with.”
if thats whats on ur mind, just go ahead and blow the man already and get it over with ..
Is Tibra covering their cost atleast ? Any chance of going out of business completely ?
7. The shareholding that the founders of Tibra and subsequent shareholders is not worth much if there is liquidity in the market and if the company is not making $$, then it does not have enough $$ to buy back the shares.
What a load of shit. Is they went out of business tomorrow the founders have already made $30M+ each. They can just walk away.
why would they be looking for a bid? it’s a cash cow, and they have already stripped a shiteload out of it – i doubt there is a need for them to sell
“The point is that you have to pay to get the information”
Dont be a fukn tightwad. It cost me $40 and ten minutes to get a copy of their report. If you cant afford that then fuk off. They made $159m AUD from trading in the last financial year but I cant figure out what the overheads are. Does anyone know?
a friend of mine is looking for a deriv sales job. Anyone got anything?
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7650523/
“A friend of mine” often means yourself. Anyway, I heard KFC is still hiring. Since they sell stuff derived from chickens, that is a true derivatives sales job with great carreer opportunities.
@ John Beggs, December 12th, 2010 at 4:25 am
“2. Timberland has the fastest system.”
Heard about this too. While other MMs have electronic eyes, Timberland actually uses electronic feet. Whenever there are mispriced socks or shoes out there, Timberland comes along and literally kicks in. This worked out very well for the last couple of years, until recently they got duped by some Norwegian shoemakers.
Mr Jack,
how about launching a new topic with the newest Eurex bullsh*t…. Fees cut in half, but market makers end up paying more…
A 25% raise in costs. Thanx, Eurex!
They obviously don’t value market makers much any more. Quelle Surprise. Next topic nothing to see here.
What can a second year market maker at Optiver expect to earn?
Fuck all. You loser. Go start a Tibra you fag.
Glenn williamson is no longer with Tibra any insight on what he’s doing right now?
As a developper/trader he could set up a little tibra by himself…
only if he copied the source code. the code he took form optiver is a bit out of date by now
maybe he can steal the code from Tibra .
What percentage of the profit do tibra traders get?
@5.51am could have moved to chicago perhaps and set himself up there with some hedge fund
@8:56am
you have to make money to get a percentage
Haha, how surprisingly. 2 comments about this and move on to WHAT DOES MY NEIGHBOUR EARN? much more important off course… For somebody who spends his whole day searching the internet to find out what other people get paid instead of trading: Without trading no cares on how much fee you pay Eurex per trade. Sounds logical…
However, more logical would be to actually try to make the money (you think) you are worth…
buncha sad losers
@ 4:25am.
Just hilarious, thank you for this funny post that brightened my day.
7:48
“only if he copied the source code. the code he took form optiver is a bit out of date by now”
I would be careful about posting any innuendo of that sort without proof. Heard about LIBEL ?
Your IP gets logged in everytime you hit the submit comment. Besides look at the only two ads on this site ? For all you know it is a Tibra run website to start with.
Sorry, i meant 11.53am which referenced the 4.25am timberland post.
I heard a rumor that the judge isn’t going to bother with a trial for Tibra he’s just going to take a poll of amsterdamtrader comments
This case will just drag on and on. There will be no money for the traders at Optiver or Tibra, only lawyers.
@ Dax punter:
Sorry. Correction:
the code he allegedly took form optiver is a bit out of date by now
so why did glen williamson leave? does that mean hes sold his shares?
who wud he sell his shares to ? is somebody going to buy tibra shares at this point of time ?
no one can afford to at the level they value them.
in Zimbabwean dollars you mean?!
Surely Sev can buy the shares off DB … I hear he made 4 million just last week.
Who the f*** is that Sev guy?
Is he supposed to make all that dow day trading on index futures?
The Australian Financial Review published an article some weeks ago stating that Tibra made a $24.5m profit from trading revenue of $166m (compared to $77.5m from trading revenue of $211m last year).
The only way to be truly free is to trade your own funds.
And they pay out 50% of the profit to traders.
Is there a link to the Australian Financial Review article?
They paid out $24.4m in shareholder dividends as well so it looks like the net profit was about $98m, which means their overheads were $68m.
If the net profit the year before was $155m then that makes overheads $56m.
@7:48 dividend payments to their shareholders do not impact their profit. Putting back in the corporate taxes (30%) first, then doubling on account of the 50% bonuses, it leaves an overhead / cost basis of around $96m. For the year before this approach yields net income of $221m versus the reported $211m, or a negative overhead. Yeah right. The notion of a 50% bonus deal at Tibra appears at odds with the numbers they have reported.
why did the tibra cash desk leave?
they setting up shop somewhere else i suppose ?
All this sharing 40% profits works when the profits are coming out nice and big .. if the profits are down, the mouths to be fed are too many to pay out 40% to traders bonus
sounds like quite a few senior tibra guys leaving. Who else? any connection with each other?
Bandari and Williamson are still big shareholders in Tibra. Most likely sunning themselves on a tropical beach somewhere.
The Financial Review article is not available online (as far as I’m aware).
As someone said at 10.08 on 19/12, dividends don’t impact profit, dividends are a financing activity that has no impact on reported net profit.
It is true that they paid basically 100% of net profit as dividends.
They are the big shareholders in the company, they can do whatever they wanna .. if they wanna keep all the profits for shareholders rather than traders, then too bad for traders .. if they are gud traders, they shud have seen this coming !
Are you seriously suggesting that the company paid out the shareholders and not the traders? You nimrod. The dividend is almost certainly coming out of retained earnings from the previous financial year. Money for shareholders either gets paid out as dividends or goes into the capital base to fund expansion and current activities.
The profit share pool is 50% for staff and 50% for shareholders, and I think we would have heard about it if it changed. We also would have heard about it if Tibra didn’t pay any bonuses.
That tropical beach must have an internet cafe because they seem to be contributing to this blog
how far down the P&L statement do they do the 50% calculation?
50% of trading revenue?
50% of net revenue (after direct trading costs)?
50% of net revenue (after trading costs and salaries)?
50% of NPAT?
@ 10.57 obviously not 50% of net revenue, see the explanation 19-Dec 10.08.
i.e. not 50% of net revenue (after direct trading costs).
50% of net revenue (after trading costs and salaries) is how most MM’s work.
Most firms in amsterdam as setup as non tax paying entities ? NPAT is not so much an issue for the firm (individual is a different case. hence the partners are single member VOF’s partners in all firms)
uh why wouldnt they pay out 100% in dividends? leave it in the balance sheet so optiver can have it when they eventually in that case??
do u think optiver partners get paid offshore .. or do they have to pay 50% income tax .. i think they might get paid thru dividends which are taxable at lower rate ..
Re: Are you seriously suggesting that the company paid out the shareholders and not the traders? You nimrod. The dividend is almost certainly coming out of retained earnings from the previous financial year. Money for shareholders either gets paid out as dividends or goes into the capital base to fund expansion and current activities.
are u high or wat .. u r talking if all ur statements are contractual .. this is a private company with private shareholders with private employees and a completely discretionary bonus scheme .. shareholders can keep all the residual/net income and ask the traders to fuck off .. why do u think so many people are leaving such places .. too many people being shafted like this ..
Re: The profit share pool is 50% for staff and 50% for shareholders, and I think we would have heard about it if it changed. We also would have heard about it if Tibra didn’t pay any bonuses.
again .. wat the fuck are u talking abt .. 50% for staff and 50% for shareholders ?? are shareholders running a charity or wat .. if staff doesnt generate enough revenues, their discretionary bonus pool would be slashed in no time .. staff can get fucked and new staff now need to be brought on .. this is typical IMC philosophy ..
btw which company are u working for .. its quite generous in its 50/50 split !
I can confirm Tibra pay out 50% of net profit to staff. Your right if the traders don’t make any money then the bonus pool is just 50% of a bucket of fuck. Still the best deal going around tho.
Are Optiver and Tibra still worth applying for for a young graduate?
If not what would you advice instead?
tibra cash guys – did they jump or were they pushed? No chance they are starting a new shop – it is just way too hard – it ain’t 2006 anymore, and post Madoff there are no more easy investors to be found
@ December 22nd, 2010 at 6:08 pm
Are Optiver and Tibra still worth applying for for a young graduate?
If not what would you advice instead?
For a young graduate. there is nowhere in the world where you will get a AUS 100K, USD 80K, EUR 60K, GBP 60K package when you are 21.
The problem is not with the firms. It is with the business. The margins on the spreads have collapsed which is why some MM firms are not paying big bonuses as they used to.
@ December 22nd, 2010 at 8:44 pm: post Madoff there are no more easy investors to be found
True. Quite a few angels around. No one willing to invest in a “MM” – HFT startup.
if you’re from a top(harvard,stanford,chicago) university 80K is no problem . The problem is to get in .
Getco,IMC,etc are all hiring in Chicago and will pay you that kind of money .
for salary, 80k usd is lot easier to get in us than 60k gbp or 60k eur in uk/europe .. US has got that much more elaborate financial system ..
Re: Are Optiver and Tibra still worth applying for for a young graduate?
If not what would you advice instead?
Life’s a bitch .. so many choices ..and no idea of the future .. see the risk reward of job as tibra/optiver .. then decide if u want to make the trade .. nobody can decide for u .. everybody has their own personal preference and not to forget lifestyle/risk profile..
My advice would be not to ask the people on this forum .
sometimes someone comes along with genuine information about the true state of his or hers company.
“sometimes someone comes along with genuine information about the true state of his or hers company.”
Referring to which comment? Most of the comments here are a load of bollocks.
the AJ e-mail(s) perhaps?
the aj emails turned out to be true right…..
http://www.wikileaks.com/marketmakers
there are quite a few genuine comments .. use ur common sense and bit of salt in reading comments here ..
759 comments .. man some of them have to be true and others complete bs ..
Guys, I am looking to apply for some grad positions as a market maker? Which firm should be top of my list and why? Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
all the market makers like optiver, tibra, IMC, AO .. read this web blog’s archive .. plenty of opinions abt different market makers ..
Are you looking for a junior or senior market maker position ?
For a Junior position.
What is then the best company to work for? Can you make a list?
For a junior position I would suggest Optiver or IMC. For a senior position you would need a smaller company like Scrocca or Nino Options. Good luck.
optiver, tibra, IMC, AO .. did i forget someone ?
@11.07: why would you suggest Optiver for a Junior position?
Are they not in the danger zone? With low profits and law cases problems?
Regards
all MMs are always in the danger zone. Thats also the risk/reward of being a junior for any of those companies. You get your 70k euros but can be out on your ass at any point your boss has a bad day.
Oke I understand. But why is Optiver such a good company for a junior then?
its not a good company for a junior, too many junior get fired for not much of their fault,
The best will always stay….
how do u know who is best and who is rest, u can certainly say this is top 25% percentile but saying someone is top 1% during first year of trainee period is bunch of bs .. u can believe ur own bs .. thats not first or last time for that ..
Anyone know how Eclipse are getting on?
@7:40 Small company doing very well in Asia
Are they up there with Tibra / Optiver in terms of revenues?
their number of people would be like 1/10th, cant compare garden with a single tree
How about Liquid Capital for a junior? Does the pay differ that much?
dunno, heard too many bad things about them though
all the market makers have got similar biz model for trainee traders, 60-70%, maybe more, maybe less gets fired from the trainee class .. in terms of vibes/grapevine .. following is a list of mm abt whom i hear some vibes .. the one at the top is most negative vibe, the one at below are most positive vibe .. this is my ranking, so its completely subjective !
AO
IMC
Liquid
Optiver
Tibra
SIG
Mako
DRW
Jane Street
What bad things have you heard about Liquid Capital? Should I just not apply? If I work there for 2 years how much can I expect to be making.
Howabout Tibra?
Go through the blog, there are plenty of opinions previously expressed abt Liquid
its ur decision to apply or not, nobody else can make it for u
you can be fired in 2 months, leave alone planning for 2 years .. if you survive 2 years, it really depends on ur performance, company’s performance, the team dynamics blah on how much money you might be given .. nobody can predict even one of this factor, leave alone all of them and the related correlations between them
Tibra is the same answers as above
i can count backwards from 10 really fast. Will I pass their maths test? Will they pay me a sign-on bonus? I also watched the original Wall Street movie – you know the realistic one from the 90’s, not the recent one which my mate says is crap
man its monday morning, didnt u get shagged over the weekend, stop with all this frustration on your poor audience ..
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