The art of firing at IMC and All Options
95 comments / March 3, 2010
There’s a good reason not to laugh at your former fellow traders being fired. You could be next. Especially when you’re working for IMC. After sacking two traders on bonus day, an additional twelve traders were shown the door. Management doesn’t escape from the cost cutting efforts neither, as the Hong Kong and Sydney offices are centralised under one management now.
One must admit IMC has developed a certain routine in firing their employees. Employees with a track record longer than five years make up for a just little more than 5% of the total staff.
All Options on firing spree
IMC isn’t the only trading firm letting people go. All Options has been trying to lay-off dozens of traders and support staff after the take-over of Saen Options. During the fall of 2009 results were pretty bad, bonuses were terminated and large numbers of employees were told to leave.
Economic reasons required
Here’s the funny part. Amsterdam is part of the Netherlands (really), and in this country it’s rather difficult to fire people at all. You’ll need a permit of the local government agency called the UWV, and explain the reason for firing people. If you have a good reason, you can proceed with the legal stuff in court. Give ‘m some money (say, 1 month per worked year for your firm) and you are done. When you’re trying to fire people because you’ve found other people to do the same job for less money – the government will generally show you the finger. You really need true economic reasons to cut staff.
UWV says “no”
And surprise, the UWV gave All Options the finger and didn’t grant a permit to fire people. It accused All Options to be cooking the books and the firm couldn’t come up with any economic reason. To worsen things for All Options : they face a court hearing for mishandling the labour rights of 100 employees.
One permit granted
A failed firing spree means continue paying the salaries, and take people back. Maybe All Options could persuade them to leave voluntarily, but quitting your job voluntarily means no unemployment benefits. Generally it’s wise to stay nice and as a trader avoid any signs of a “disturbed relationship” ; which could a viable reason to fire you. The firm will have to bleed. The one in charge for firing everyone, is now fired himself. Guess it wasn’t a problem to get a permit for that..
Jobs stil available
Anyway, still jobs available at IMC and All Options!
It's a sad state of affairs. Does anyone have anything good to say about All Options? Let's hear it if you do, because I can't remember the last time.
If they really want to cut the overhead, then Slick Ralph needs to go.
I thought all options was going to open an office in chicago ?
good observation !!
The problem is that AO, like Saen before them, are too cheap to pay people the one month per year and get rid of them quickly like Optiver and IMC do. So they just sit them there with no responsibility and this causes a bad work place atmosphere and culture, and the guys don't make any money but still get their salary. Productivity goes to shit. Yeah it's a slow bleed.
slick ralph will go as he is running a loss making office!
is all options the next vdm…
there are lots of rumours about them cooking the books!!
guess they better hope for another Altana style home run or the game could be up for em
How many employees did they try to fire ?
Interesting.
http://www.imc.nl/Financial-markets/Vacancies/StepStone-Vacancy/?detailsid=28420
http://www.alloptions-international.com/careers/Current-Openings.html
1
LOL…..what a big f'in joke…all those experienced traders that climb up the ladder. The only thing they're good at (or at least should be) is trading. Managing a company is just a little different, but those cowboys think they can conquer the world. Waky, waky….it aint Disneyland you're playin in, and no you're not Peter Pan. The Dutch would say: "Schoenmaker, blijf bij je leest."
bitter vdm loser
imc just tries to become the new timberhill, if you are not a quant you gone
IMC fired 12 employees who have been with the company for at least 1 year, while kept 3 new trainees who have just started on day one…
IMC are too stupid to become the next TH. Maybe that is why they're firing their thickos.
Yeah, sack the thickos!
Oh just wait – the biggest mother fucking bombshell is about to drop from All Options. The shit that's going to hit the fan hasn't even begun (yet)……
@5.39AM, can you please elaborate on your comment?
@ 5:39
Either come up with some actual information or just shut up man
apparently there is just about to happen a very large law suit against All Options…. how many legal actions do they have against them….. its amazing. slick ralph and ugly allard
All Options can better close the doors and start over again. Or does somebody think that Allard will try to prevent All Options to go bankrupt? Expected cash needed 30 million a year.
I thought people were saying Ralph was ok?
Come on, I want to hear some positive comments about All Options. Does anybody have anything positive to say?
Wasn't there an intern on this board who mention that his company pays a bonus to interns even if they don't make money. Just because they're doing the "right" thing? Could that company have been All Options. That might be considered a positive.
Ralph is OK as long as you are on his good side. Otherwise he will kill you with his bare hands as he used to be a marine and a doorman and allround hard ass muthafucka.
yadda yadda, law case this, law case that. The numbers in the article aren't even true. 100 people left All Options yes – if you include trainee traders, people who resigned, and pigeons that landed on the all options office roof and then flew off again over the last 2 years…
Sometimes anonymous blogs can help reveal insider facts and provide a true whistleblowing channel – but this is all myth and fantasy.
Another court case? really? Wow – another one that no one's ever heard of.
If you're fired you will always contest it, as I understand it you don't get unemployment benefits unless you showed you contested your firing. No one likes being fired, but the system makes you have to contest it anyway!
Nah. come on, this isn't news!!! Considering what's happening in the markets – this is the best you're got?
hahahaaaa, you dutch are crazy. Complaining about being fired? Come to the US and complain… funny.
@Traderbob, tell me ; did All Options had to take back fired traders?
I can understand someone without common sense doing so but not people like Allard…. how about you release a serial killer (who has happend to be a rapist as well) and you tell : Dude you are free again and guess what, here is your "00X license"… the license to kill and rape free of charge !
People can be stupid, but not that stupid !
WTF?
You can be asked to take back an employee if you lost the uwv but you'll try to avoid that situation as much as possible !
You will certainly not give a trader his job back if you made his life a nightmare because he'll return you the favour his way 🙂
On what grounds did he try to take them to court?
"at least allard was a trader", reason why the only person he listens to is himself and only he takes all the decisions including all trading decisons.
Ralph on the contrary listened to everybody and knew all the activities of all departments at SAEN. Delegating properly is also an skill, a very important one for a global company.
Ask All Options employees how many Senior traders & Researchers/Quants are left after the dictatorship.
no matter what kind of dictator you are, what you don't know about your employees or any given department, the most important thing in our business, the one thing you know for sure : you tend to try to control RISKS !
if so, then you obviously can't put yourself at risk reinstating former traders. that would be the worst move you could make.
even spending your money and wasting your time in taking employees to court could be seen as strategic if you have forecasted those employees to give up at some point.
like you say Allard is a trader, he knows well when to take his loss…
i love ralph.
he has a strong track record
Current * CEO 行政總裁 Asia Pacific at All Options Hong Kong
Past * CEO 行政總裁 Asia Pacific at Saen Options Holding Hong Kong Ltd.
* CEO 行政總裁 at Saen Options Holding BV
* Founder / Chairman at Atompro
To reply – from what I know, no traders that were let go due to performance issues have been taken back. Because performance against targets is a valid criteria.
But yes, as other anon's note – that would only happen if it could be proved that you fired them illegally.
But that's not the issue here. Job redundancies are widespread at the moment. People complain, but most companies have this covered. I don't believe this is news basically.
It just stinks of a put-up job against All Options.
good track record….. are you crazy….
atompro ceo – shit, where are they now….
saen ceo – shit, had to sell or disappear, where are they now
all options asia ceo – shit, dont make money
get a life!
@ 12.26pm
You obviously don't know what you are talking about. And I will bet that Ralph is *much* richer than you are or will ever be …… so lets just assume you are a little jealous. See below!
Atom Pro: probably sold for a lot of money
Saen Options: probably sold for a lot of money
All Options HK: probably the only office making any money!
😉
B is that you ?
saen sold for a lot of moeny….. dont be so silly!
all options making money anywhere… why all the firing
all options are shit!
Ron was pretty happy with what he got for it. He told me
considering they didnt make a bean for 5 years i think saen would be happy to offload the business
stop saying none sense ! all the companies make money, it's just you guys don't see the warehouse behind your screens. i can't say a lot here but it's the same for everyone.
ron, allard, etc. are brilliant in the sense they understand the system and know how to exploit it ! you people just see a desk, screens, maturities and strikes, where they see ambitious guys – part of the system, dreaming of bonuses i.e willing to work within certain limites- that will allow them to take care of the rest: make money they way they do…
a good advise that could help some of you : please try to understand the dynamic of things around you !
the point here is about firing people, not about ralph who indeed is a smart guy, capable to make money out of rotten fruits left at end of a market.
yeah right
It's true. What this blog shows is that most traders are idiots
I'm not an idiot, I'm a vliegtuig!
Flow trades are arrogant idiots(my grandma would be able to trade also with internal flow) with big ego.
Market makers are the guys who take the risk.
i presume you say that on the back of having experienced first hand both sorts of trading styles – or perhaps not, due to your comment of "market makers are the guys who take the risk". You make yourself sound very green
This is how the owners treat you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ganKuWTiLuQ&feature=related
@March 13, 2010 7:57 AM
I am a Market Maker.
I'm Spartacus!
Ja, als Spartacus een paar eeuwen later was geboren dan had hij de Tour wel gewonnen.
@March 14, 2010 7:54 PM
i realise you are a market maker. The point I am making is that you have likely only ever been a market maker, and that you assume that being a flow trader is all about trying to work out what you are going to do with all the arbitrage P&L you are making. All the while the poor little market makers are the only 'true' traders in the market willing to take risk. WTF? You have no idea of what IB traders do. Yes we see some client flow, but it is all competitive these days, usually 5+ dealers responding to rfq's, which means that you only trade against a client when you are axed and show a mid market price one way in big size. Flow traders are exactly the same as market makers, only that they make fewer prices in much larger size. I have traded both styles over more than a decade and truly believe that trading at an IB is far more difficult than trading at a MM.
What have the last 5/6 comments got to do with firing at IMC and AOI?
Apparently there are no words to qualify these guys… ah yes, maybe 'brainless' !
Seriously I am still wondering how you guys live your lives with so little common sense, you definitely could help some of us !
You sound like just as much an idiot as the rest of them, mate. You make no sense, either!
@ March 15, 2010 11:37 AM.
I know several flow traders and their ego is as big as the Everest…the funny thing is that when they move to a bank without not much flow… they are completly lost as they do not know how to manage a position because they got lazy due to the flow.
If you are MM and later you became a flow trader the oportunity to make more money is greater as you risk limit are bigger and in small stocks you sometimes can corner the market.
Ralph is the best, on the other side Allard lacks vision, leadership and its a cheap person, with no style, culture or drive at all. Its a pity that Saen fell on the hands of Alloptions.
Gentlemen,
I think this is the right place to ask a short question:
Is it common for firms like AllOptions, Optiver, etc to include a clause in their employees' contract that forbids them to work for a competing firm within one year of leaving them?
I can recall talking to a Saen HR person a couple of years ago, she told me that this was the case for Saen.
Yes. It is enforcable in Dutch Law but not in the UK or US. A 3 month gardening leave is the compromise in London for instance.
One year is too long. In SAEN and then All Options it was 6 months.
Current trading company is 3 months.
I wonder how long in Optiver, Tibra or IMC ??
why did saen fall in the hands of all options…. were saen in trouble….
They lost on VOW which was the final straw for the owner who wanted out of the business
All Options doesn't fire people… they don't need to because people quit by themselves!
Three index traders quit recently (supposedly for Flow Traders). The reason? First of all, AO isn't making any money and everybody is very pessimistic about the bonuses this year. Secondly, AO who takes pride in being ahead technology-wise requires its employees to be able to do openings in order to go from junior trader to trader (how archaic!).
Before opening a new office in Chicago, AO might want to first make sure its other offices are profitable! Allard seems to be more interested in pride than in profits. But understand this: there's no prestige in being a loser!
As for the discussion between what's better between being a flow trader or a market maker… who cares which job is more difficult, it's all about money anyway! So right now i'd say being a flow trader is better.
Rolex man (reference to the oh so funny all options video) would have to agree with me on this one, he'd probably like to be able to afford a real one! But hey buddy, seeing where All Options is headed, you would have more chance trading look backs than expecting a bonus this year!
The coffee lady.
@10.03AM
This is completely fake, everyone knows that AOI fired the coffee lady 🙂
mr rolex man
i will offer you $5 for your fake…
coffee lady, wel spoken ! Amen
when is van put getting fired…..
I heard the rolex man cant even afford a swatch!!! I`ll give him 15 $ for his fake!
Rolexs are way uncool anyway, Omegas are the watch now!
Van Put will leave when the lock up in his contract expires and that´s very soon!!
When does Van Puts lock up contract expire? Hopefully he will set up a rival company to kick AOIs (and Jakobs) ass!
bytheway…does anybody know the original source of ralphy money???? All the other big guys were/are traders…but ralphy???despite his last name…he surely doesnt know what is a put…
So what is it?heritage?scams?legal/illegal?
Honest hard work, you idiot!!
He founded AtomPro company which developed a very sucessful trading platform for option trading
He knows about trading technology much more than you wish. You do not need to trade like a monkey every day to understand the game and have vision, the future is in technology and automated trading
honest hard work…hahahahaha, that is funny mate!!!
Ask all the slaves that were working in Saen for no bonus and salary of a TNT employee..they made the hard work!!!Look…the good guys realized it and left already…
They left AO not SAEN, ask anyone who really knows what he is talking about: people leaving SAEN was minimal, and obviously the last year wasn't the best being subject to a take over, so how could anyone be so naive on those times to expect bonuses.
Salaries where low but funny in AO salaries are higher but everybody is running away from it.
AO salaries were higher than Saen salaries, but still shit compared to other competitor mm's. maybe in the strategic update from AJ at midday today he will announce double salary for all staff & guaranteed bonuses, or he might just fire everyone and declare bankruptcy! we will find out by this afternoon……
we're curious as well, so let us know
No real news from Allard so far. He did mention that he has declined a takeover bid from Calimero Trading.
Ralph has become professor of business administration at university of Hong Kong.
Faculty of Business Administration, Adjunct Professor of Finance
The Chinese University of Hong Kong
(Educational Institution; Higher Education industry)
April 2010 — Present (1 month)
any news?
yes, apparently all options is gonna take over Euronext 😉
yes, all options is gonna take over Euronext 😉
no, Calimero will take over Euronext !
calimero is gonna rule the world
w00t
Dear AO-/Saen-salaries'guy',
any news about the afternoon-meeting??
The ship is getting lighter…
… but faster!
…but faster
All Option is going into the second round of firing all over again they are planing to fire 60 more people…
thx for the update, whats the situation now, how many fired, how many remaining .. where are the firings taking place, across board ?